A lot of thanks to joshua*, lindsay moore and Pepe the King Prawn for
their reactions. They certainly helped clear certain things up.

I've become a member of banjohangout.org, which is indeed a very
interesting and useful site. I've also found a banjo dealer here in
The Netherlands and he will send me a list of the banjo's he currently
has for sale.

I'm still not sure what type of banjo I would like most, but I figure
I'm just going to pay him a visit and play as many different banjo's
as I can and then hopefully it will become clear which one I really want.

Thanks again for your advice.

i guess it depends on the banjo itself...i actually bought an open backed,
older, banjo for about $150, and it just doesn't play as well as the 'nicer'
ones, and it doesn't give as good of a sound.  and i know it's made by a good
company (deering).  i can tell you that "ditch digger" sounds much better played
on the 'nicer' banjos than it does on mine!

but again, it probably depends on the actual banjo itself, so i grudgingly
retract my previous statement and agree with what lindsay implied: "go find a
bargain."

joshua*
florida


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: lindsay moore
   To: 16horsepower@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:20 PM
   Subject: Re: [16horsepower] banjos



   Gonna play the devil's advocate here... Banjos with resonators are more
   popular and they might give a "better" tone, but if you are looking for 16HP
   tone, you really do probably want an open-backed one like David's (I can't
   remember what kind his is, not an Orpheum but something from the same era).
   I'm not the most knowledgable person about banjos in the world, but I picked
   up a very old open backed banjo at a used music store for just over $100 and
   I think it is very nice. Of course, it was probably undervalued by a
   considerable amount (someone had spent some effort getting it set up nicely,
   new tuners, etc.), but I disagree that you have to spend $800 to get a nice
   one, especially if you are just looking for a vintagey, cool, 16Hp-y one.



     ----- Original Message -----
     Subject: [16horsepower] Banjo

   Stephan -

   what type of banjo?  an old one.

   about banjos in general:
   when shopping for one, the heavier the banjo, the better.  light banjos are
   usually poor in tone (in my experience), and won't give the sound you're
   looking for.  i prefer banjos with resonators on the back.  they give better
   dynamics and better tone.  if you're going to buy one, go ahead and save up
   for a nice one.  nothing is more frustrating to play than a crappy banjo.  i
   wouldn't spend less than $800 american for a banjo.

   as far as David's playing style goes, i believe he taught himself how to
   play it (just like all his other instruments), and so i'm not sure if he
   plays in a particular fashion.  perhaps someone who's seen him live and is
   familiar with banjo styles can tell you for sure how he plays.

   hope it goes well for you.
   remember:  heavy banjo = good banjo

   joshua*
   florida, usa






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just a few quick things...

Firstly, I would suggest anyone interested in playing
the banjo visit www.banjohangout.org

Second, there's a dozen or more "styles" or methods to
play a 5 string banjo and DEE uses more than one.
There's at least one song (on Low Estate I think) that
is unmistakably frailing/clawhammer (or else Pete
Seegar's semi-frailing up-strum).  I think there's
another on another CD which is essentially 3 finger
"Scruggs-style" bluegrass type playing.  But he does a
fair bit that doesn't fall into either of these.  I
believe if you look closely in "SEarching for the
Wrong-Eyed Jeses" you'll see him playing with a thumb
and index finger with picks on each, not Scruggs style
nor frailing, more of an improvised 2-finger style
like Roscoe Halcomb or Dock Boggs.  Oh, and I believe
I overheard in another conversation that the one he
usually plays is a very nice, pre-war model of unknown
make.

Third, if you want to buy and take up the banjo,
there's 2 buying strategies.  If you know exactly what
style you want to play and what sound you want, buy
the closest thing to your dream banjo that you can
afford.  If you're not sure how dedicated you are, or
if you're not sure what style you'd like, etc (if you
don't know what your ideal banjo would be if money
were no option) then get a good el-cheapo one and if a
year or so later you're still into it and have figured
out what style and sound you're after, trade up.  Gold
Tone's Cripple Creek model and Deering's Goodtime are
highly rated (the first is Korean parts assembled in
America, the second entirely American made) but in my
opinion are ugly as sin.  But sound great and are
quite playable.  (I own a different Gold Tone model
and it gets my thumb up)  The Rover openbacks are also
a good option being totally Far-East imports but seem
to be the best of that lot.
You can learn any style (bluegrass, frailing,
2-finger, whatever) on any type of 5 string banjo
(openback or resonator, regular neck, longneck, or
A-scale) the same way you don't need a Porsche to
learn to drive--whatever's in the driveway will do as
long as it runs properly.  In the same vein, the banjo
you choose to learn on doesn't matter so much as
whether or not it has been properly "set-up" to be in
playable condition.  Order the best bargain from
someplace online and you might find you've got one
with a misplaced bridge, a slapped-on tailpiece and
floppy head--and that thing will never be in tune and
playable until you take it to a professional and get
it tweaked.  And a properly set-up el-cheapo will
serve you better than a top-of-the-line model that
isn't properly setup and tweaked.

None of this applies if money is no object.  If you're
loaded, get a pre-war Gibson or Stelling with gold
plating and it'll do nothing but appreciate in value
even if you never touch it.

---Pepe





___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Gonna play the devil's advocate here... Banjos with resonators are more
popular and they might give a "better" tone, but if you are looking for 16HP
tone, you really do probably want an open-backed one like David's (I can't
remember what kind his is, not an Orpheum but something from the same era).
I'm not the most knowledgable person about banjos in the world, but I picked
up a very old open backed banjo at a used music store for just over $100 and
I think it is very nice. Of course, it was probably undervalued by a
considerable amount (someone had spent some effort getting it set up nicely,
new tuners, etc.), but I disagree that you have to spend $800 to get a nice
one, especially if you are just looking for a vintagey, cool, 16Hp-y one.



   ----- Original Message -----
   Subject: [16horsepower] Banjo

Stephan -

what type of banjo?  an old one.

about banjos in general:
when shopping for one, the heavier the banjo, the better.  light banjos are
usually poor in tone (in my experience), and won't give the sound you're
looking for.  i prefer banjos with resonators on the back.  they give better
dynamics and better tone.  if you're going to buy one, go ahead and save up
for a nice one.  nothing is more frustrating to play than a crappy banjo.  i
wouldn't spend less than $800 american for a banjo.

as far as David's playing style goes, i believe he taught himself how to
play it (just like all his other instruments), and so i'm not sure if he
plays in a particular fashion.  perhaps someone who's seen him live and is
familiar with banjo styles can tell you for sure how he plays.

hope it goes well for you.
remember:  heavy banjo = good banjo

joshua*
florida, usa

Stephan -

what type of banjo?  an old one.

about banjos in general:
when shopping for one, the heavier the banjo, the better.  light banjos are
usually poor in tone (in my experience), and won't give the sound you're looking
for.  i prefer banjos with resonators on the back.  they give better dynamics
and better tone.  if you're going to buy one, go ahead and save up for a nice
one.  nothing is more frustrating to play than a crappy banjo.  i wouldn't spend
less than $800 american for a banjo.

as far as David's playing style goes, i believe he taught himself how to play it
(just like all his other instruments), and so i'm not sure if he plays in a
particular fashion.  perhaps someone who's seen him live and is familiar with
banjo styles can tell you for sure how he plays.

hope it goes well for you.
remember:  heavy banjo = good banjo

joshua*
florida, usa

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: s_j_adriaens
   To: 16horsepower@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:14 PM
   Subject: [16horsepower] Banjo



   Hello,

   I am new to this group and I'll be honest, I haven't taken the time to
   read every message in the list yet. So if my question has been asked
   before by someone else, I sincerely apologize.

   Does anyone know what kind of banjo(s) David Eugene Edwards plays? I'm
   interested in type (like open back or bluegrass) and make/brand. Does
   anyone know what playing style he uses (clawhammer/scruggs)?

   I hope someone has an answer for me. I'd be very very grateful.


   Kind regards,

   Stephan from The Netherlands

Is anyone else having problems downloading certain D.G.  songs?

Hello,

I am new to this group and I'll be honest, I haven't taken the time to
read every message in the list yet. So if my question has been asked
before by someone else, I sincerely apologize.

Does anyone know what kind of banjo(s) David Eugene Edwards plays? I'm
interested in type (like open back or bluegrass) and make/brand. Does
anyone know what playing style he uses (clawhammer/scruggs)?

I hope someone has an answer for me. I'd be very very grateful.


Kind regards,

Stephan from The Netherlands

http://music.westword.com/Issues/2004-12-23/music/music.html

In 2004, Mootown's best and brightest gave us something to write home about
...

The Denver Gentlemen, The Denver Gentlemen (Self-released). Jeffrey-Paul
Norlander's creation has had a big influence on Denver's sound during the
past decade or two; Slim Cessna's Auto Club is among the notable acts
featuring former Gentlemen. Norlander's latest offering can be downloaded
for free at www.denvergentlemen.com. The site is slow, but music this
wonderfully eloquent, evocative and spooky is worth the wait. -- Roberts

DeVotchKa, How It Ends (Cicero). Whether cross-pollinating neo-classical
tango with Polish polka or creating some new hybrid of norteño-flavored
gypsy opera, DeVotchKa shatters musical boundaries with every new release.
This time around, studio vet Craig Schumacher (Calexico), helps Denver's
most romantic and adventurous quartet do what they it does best: stir the
blood, dazzle the senses and make the heart soar. -- La Briola

Munly & the Lee Lewis Harlots, Munly & the Lee Lewis Harlots (Alternative
Tentacles/ Smooch). Jay Munly presents fifteen gothic chestnuts (captured in
Dolby Surround Sound with DVD extras) that feature grandiose string
arrangements and stunning vocal harlotry -- including a stellar doo-wop
number. Dark, elegant, and utterly original, Munly and company's masterpiece
dives headlong into the ninth circle of Hell, aided by homemade liquor and
antebellum undergarments. -- La Briola

Wovenhand, Consider the Birds (Sounds Familyre). David Eugene Edwards's
trademark intensity shows no signs of flagging. Although Wovenhand is
ostensibly an opportunity for him to take a break from the rigors of 16
Horsepower, the tracks left by Birds are every bit as fierce and profound as
the songs he saves for his main gig. Edwards is a man on a mission, and he's
accomplished it once again. -- Roberts

Hello,

i've attended to Woven Hand at L'Europeen in Paris (28/11/2004)
nice show
here is the playlist for those who are interested :

- Outlaw Song
- Your Russia
- Sparrow Falls
- Speaking Hands
- Straw Foot
- My Russia
- Chest of Drawers
- Phyllis Ann / Phyllis Ruth
- White Bird
- Down in Yon Forest
- Wooden Brother
- Oil On Panel
- Last Fist
- Tin Finger
- Golden Rope
- Black Soul Choir
- Blue Pail Fever

++
Greg.

thanks!

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Matthew Q Martin
   To: 16horsepower@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:28 PM
   Subject: [16horsepower] Rev. Bob



   I'm not sure how to get this to everyone, but all the other times I've
   responded to something it seems to go out wide so here goes,

   You folks might want to check out Rev. Bob and the Darkness
   (www.gosaveyourself.com)...

glad to see somebody else from the dirty south...

so, from my south georgia roots to you, "welcome, son..come on in."

joshua*
tallahassee, fl
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: fleshbox
   To: 16horsepower@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 2:24 PM
   Subject: [16horsepower] New member




   Hello all,

   New member from atlanta, Just found out about 16HP about a year ago.
   Favorite albums is Folklore. Also followed the trail to Lilium have
   both Cd's, I really like Short Stories and have all threes woven
   hand Cd's finally. To me ( not to discount the other members of 16HP)
   David Eugene Edward is a genius.
   My other band obsessions are Whipping Boy, The Blue Nile, Wire
   Train, Kitchens of Distinction , Chameleons UK.

   Rob Turner

Hello,

had a chance to see Pascal as a guest of Santa Cruz on the last show
(of 4) of the Transmusicales last saturday. Absolutely chilling
performance.
Santa Cruz are 7 on stage, to which you add Pascal on upright bass and
Billy Conway (Morphine) on drums. Though they hadn't rehearsed more
than 10 days, the show was just perfect. It seemed like the 2 guests
were part of the band, not just guests.
Santa Cruz played during 2 hours, and both guests played at least an
hour. Their music is close to Calexico, Sparklehorse, Pinetop Seven, 16
Horsepower sometimes when the voices are dark. Sometimes when they were
9 on stage, there were 2 drums, upright bass and bass, electric organ
or piano, 3 guitars, pedal steel or banjo, and 2 singers with beautiful
voices, reinforced by Yann Tiersen (famous French composer) on the
violin and xylo on 2 tracks. The best part of it (and quite a
challenge) was to be able to hear everyone perfectly. Perfect sound,
perfect lights, and at the end of the show most people with tears in
their eyes, which I had never seen before.
For those interested, you can hear some of their music on
www.santacruzband.net
I'd recommend their live CD though it represents the first album only.
This band, though more professional than many, have no record company,
which is just crazy. They would fit so well to a label like City Slang
of Glitterhouse...

greetings

Arnaud

PS : these shows were recorded. Not sure they are going to sell them,
but if they ever do, I'll let you know. This is a must have. In the
meantime, there is a song with Pascal on their website :
http://www.santacruzband.net/trans/2.htm

Welcom to the group!!

--- In 16horsepower@yahoogroups.com, "fleshbox" <fleshbox@y...> wrote:
> My other band obsessions are Whipping Boy, The Blue Nile, Wire
> Train, Kitchens of Distinction , Chameleons UK.

Ahhhh.....Kitchens of Distinction......good to see there are still
people who like them. Sadly seen them just ones as the support act of
Grand Lee Buffalo. But still it was a great night....two great band
on one bill :-)
The Chameleons UK....my all time favorite "indy" band....man what
where the great.

Fred

I'm not sure how to get this to everyone, but all the other times I've
responded to something it seems to go out wide so here goes,

You folks might want to check out Rev. Bob and the Darkness
(www.gosaveyourself.com) They're from Boston and I checked out a show in NYC
a few weeks back and they really blew me away. Bob says he'll send free CD's
to anyone who asks too.

mq

Hello all,

New member from atlanta, Just found out about 16HP about a year ago.
Favorite albums is Folklore. Also followed the trail to Lilium have
both Cd's, I really like Short Stories and have all threes woven
hand Cd's finally. To me ( not to discount the other members of 16HP)
David Eugene Edward is a genius.
My other band obsessions are Whipping Boy, The Blue Nile, Wire
Train, Kitchens of Distinction , Chameleons UK.

Rob Turner

There's a track on a compilation a friend made for me which I can't
identify. It's very lo fi x country sounding. acoustic. The lyrics
are some thing like "I don't know where I will go but I don't want
any of you fools to come along with me. I don't know what I will I
do but I don't want any of you fools to follow my steps. Change me
I'm different, change me I'm (down????!) but I don't want any of you
fools to follow my steps. I don't know where this will end but I
don't want any of you fools to understand I don't know where this
will end but I don't want any of you fools to take a stand Change me
I'm different, change me I'm (down????!) but I don't want any of you
fools to follow my steps.

anyone record any of the last woven hand shows? any recorded by radio? I'd
love to hear some...

regards
tonnie

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail en Messenger on the move
http://www.msn.nl/communicatie/smsdiensten/hotmailsmsv2/

Lisa,

did you hear?  I live in Duesseldorf, and am also looking for a ride.  I
will help pay gas.

Chris nagel

>From: Lisa Hörning <uzs80x@...>
>Reply-To: 16horsepower@yahoogroups.com
>To: 16horsepower@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [16horsepower] Concert in Hasselt this thursday
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:40:00 +0100
>
>Hello!
>
>
>Is anybody from the Cologne-Bonn-Area planning to go to the concert in
>Hasselt, Belgium?
>
>I'm looking for a lift to Hasselt (now fourteen month without a car and
>this is the first time, that I really regret this)!
>
>Lisa

Hello!


Is anybody from the Cologne-Bonn-Area planning to go to the concert in
Hasselt, Belgium?

I'm looking for a lift to Hasselt (now fourteen month without a car and
this is the first time, that I really regret this)!

Lisa

Santa Cruz will also have news, pictures, videos and mp3s from these
shows on their web site.

Santa Cruz: http://www.santacruzband.net/
Transmusicales Festival: http://www.transmusicales.com/

A message from the band:
First we want to thank you all for all your support. We would not be
here without you all.
Here is a hint for some of you to ponder about:
16 Horsepower sign their songs (Edwards/16Horsepower).
The reason being for administrative reasons and publishing rights.
The first name is for the lyrics and the second for the music.
If the music of a song were to be written by only one individual, that
individual's name would be there alone.
We hope this settles some of the issues that were discussed.
Thanks again,
16HP

--- Arnaud Robin <arnaud_robin@y...> wrote:
> not sure it's been said yet but Pascal Humbert and Billy Conway
> (Morphine) are the guests of the band Santa Cruz on dec 1-2-3-4, in
> Rennes (France). I don't know if they will play with them or as
> openers, though my guess would be they'll play with them.

Pascal will play with Santa Cruz, backing them up on a few songs.

Hi,

I first came across Sixteen Horsepower in the summer of 1995 when
they supported the band I was working for at the time (Shane MacGowan
and the Popes) on a number of dates on a US tour. I was totally
captivated by their sound and style, quite unlike anything I'd heard
before, and I watched them every night which was unusual for me as I
wouldn't really take much notice of the support act unless they were
exceptional, which 16HP are. I became friends with them during the
tour and they asked me to work with them on a European tour in 1997
which was a great honour for me to work with a band I loved and still
love. In 1995 Kevin Sol was the bass player who I thought was a great
player, does anyone know what he does now?? Is he still playing???
When they played Dublin a few years back, David dedicated a song for
me, Joy Division's Twenty Four Hours, another favourite band of mine
and one of David's too, a special moment and totally unexpected!
Just thought I'd share a few memories with you....

Cheers,
Andrew (Spud)

good point.

i really love woven hand, but i always miss jy's drumming, and wonder what he
would've done with the wh songs.  same with the bass lines.
we can only imagine it, but i'm sure those songs would have completely different
feels if they were used for hp.

hp has just a different dynamic than wh.  not better...just different.

and i love it all.
joshua*


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Jacqueline Hoogendoorn
   To: 16horsepower@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 3:20 AM
   Subject: Re: [16horsepower] Re: wovenhand replaces 16hp?




   >(Jacqueline please understand that David writes the songs, not just the
words)
   >
   >
   >George

   Where on earth do you get that idea from? Grab Sackcloth 'n' Ashes from the
   shelf and look at the liner notes. It says clearly: "Music by 16
   Horsepower. Lyrics by David Eugene Edwards." You don't seriously think that
   David tells Pascal and Jean-Yves exactly how to play their instruments when
   they're at the studio, do you?

   Jacqueline

here here...I agree, Whitewashed' wouldn't be out of
place on folklore, but there's nothing special about
it on short Stories, either, it fits right in with the
rest of the stuff....if somebody else was singing it,
would anybody even know it was written by
David??...it's not meant to stand out anyway;))

> having lilium is also a good thing but i will not be
> defensive about saying that 'whitewashed' is more
> special.  In reply to the friend who said 'it's
> whitewashed that's out of place' well...
> 'whitewashed' wouldn't be out of place on
> 'Folklore'.  Need i say which place i'd rather be?

>(Jacqueline please understand that David writes the songs, not just the words)
>
>
>George

Where on earth do you get that idea from? Grab Sackcloth 'n' Ashes from the
shelf and look at the liner notes. It says clearly: "Music by 16
Horsepower. Lyrics by David Eugene Edwards." You don't seriously think that
David tells Pascal and Jean-Yves exactly how to play their instruments when
they're at the studio, do you?

Jacqueline

i'm sorry so many people seem upset by what i said

Arnaud, i'm replying as i don't want there to be any bitterness about this, so
maybe I didn't make myself clear enough.  Firstly, i give Pascal and Jean-Yves
every credit due (I have championed Steven Taylor and pointed to how much he
contributed to Secret South and the subsequent tour many times on the list) and
know that the music I hold dearest to me would not be the same without them. 
The songs without them would sound very very different (maybe more like WH ???
if you like), however there would still be those songs.  Without David there
wouldn't.  (Jacqueline please understand that David writes the songs, not just
the words)

You say:

"He would have needed to fire JY and Pascal then. Why he has chosen not
to is maybe a clue that there is a difference to him, and with WH he
wanted to experience new stuff he couldn't do with 16HP. Why he still
tours with the 2 different lineups could be another one. "

This is not the case i'm afraid.  What i've been trying to say and what Ray
tried to say (which is what David said in an interview)... is that DEE recorded
the WH songs by himself because Pascal and Jean-Yves didn't want to work on them
with David to make it a 16HP LP.  He went on to say that P and JY have other
means of income whereas he needs to record albums and tour regularly in order to
support his family.  (On previous accusations to my name...if this sounds like
i'm saying David is a rockstar or cult leader i'm afraid i couldn't even try to
make you understand)  And the different touring lineups are for the same reason
(P and JY don't want to tour as much any more).  These then are the reasons. 
There's a lot of integrity in this.  Please try to see that i'm not saying
anything negative about anyone.  just facts.
in a nutshell i'm saying i'd much rather have WH than not because it's not the
case that there would be more 16HP albums without WH.   and going back to how
this thread started...it's not an issue of WH replacing 16HP, but if 16HP could
for any reason no longer go on as the group we know and love, we would still
have WH (and that's a good thing)... and having lilium is also a good thing but
i will not be defensive about saying that 'whitewashed' is more special.  In
reply to the friend who said 'it's whitewashed that's out of place' well...
'whitewashed' wouldn't be out of place on 'Folklore'.  Need i say which place
i'd rather be?

George

PS: this is the last entry i'm making on this thread as i don't think i can make
myself any clearer, and besides what Jef's been saying about the old days is
really interesting and i'd like to hear and learn as much as i can about the
Denver scene past present and future.

well, I was not there, but we visited Nijmegen yesterday. The show was pretty
good and the performance intense...and the message clear :)
I also want to give great compliments to the drummer...fantastic...looks more
like a magician sometimes...
I'm looking forward to my next visit ;)
wim

Onno van Paridon <onno_van_paridon@...> wrote:

Anyone seen the Tivoli concert last Sunday? What was your opinion about the
concert?

Anyone seen the Tivoli concert last Sunday? What was your opinion about the
concert?

Thanks to others for fine recommendations.

Consider
http://www.jeffreyfoucault.com/index.html

He's a Wisconsin local hero, popular overseas, too.  He has a very folk, very
blue collar,
farm boy Americana sound.  Great storyteller in song and on stage live.  He was
the warm
up act for Richard Buckner here in Milwaukee a year ago. Buckner proved (sadly)
he's really
just a studio musician.  But Foucault was great.

and... these guys who I can't describe.  If you like Ennio Morriconne and loud
brass gypsy
music try them out.

Boban I Marko Balkan Brass Fest
Listen to samples on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000E6LS5/ref=wl_it_dp/102
-9174907
-2440137?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=IA4Z3EQN0X5SA&v=glance&colid=1USDX6D15QMF
X

Best,
chuck