Yes it is a bit off topic, and it is not in my policy to "push" my beliefs onto anyone. After my BS degree (Env. Science) I turned down a MS program @ Gordon-Conwell near Boston to go to New Brunswick Bible Institute (M. Religious Ed.). I don't remember the book we used, but I do remember that the 7 seals are on the 7 books which are slightly different that the 7 bowls or vials.
The point of this is that the picture depicted a stylized image the "vials" looked like Viking drinking horns, and obviously the lyres are the typical figure 8 of the time period and migration/conversion to Western europe. Biblically the lyre would have the "U" shape with a crossbar. (English translation of the Dutch "Stringed Instruments of the Middle Ages.") So we can determine that the picture is not a historically accurate Biblical
representatin. As for the accuracy of the lyre depicted we can not confirm or deny that the shape and 10+ strings were available when the painting was done. As we all know artist occasionally embellish and stylize in their works. Did anyone else notice that the "angels" delivering the "vials" all had the same face. Typically the person commissioning the painting wanted their image immortalized in a painting or sculpture and so the artist would do so. (I also have a minor degree Assc. Art in classic art).
So concerning the lyre, until we have physical archeological evidence the shape is possible but not definitive. My lyre made by Jay Whitcher, Master harp make of Houlton Maine. He, informed me that there are few actual archeological remains of lyres. Thus many designs could have been used.
However, the finger pisitioning of double plucking with both hands is a true technique. I have tried it and it
takes some concentration for me. Frankly I like the design of this lyre and if horse hair was used for the strings the tension might be low enough to not "send the tail piece into lower orbit."
Well enough on the "religion" of the bowls, vials, seals and books. What is of most interest is the lyre in the picture and the hand position.
My inflated 2 cents.
Doug Saball Unity, Maine USA
--- On Wed, 7/1/09, Roger <doveharp@...> wrote:
From: Roger <doveharp@...> Subject: [Anglo_Saxon_Lyres] Re: Lyre-Players_Bamberg-Apocalypse To: Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 10:34 PM
The Seven Seals is a controversial topic now days. In 1963, William Branham preached inspiring messages on the Seven Seals in Jeffersonville Indiana. Hundreds of books have been written on the Seven Seals since then. Even Billy Graham dealt with the Seven Seals in his book Approaching Hoof Beats.
I do not mean to cause confusion, since members of this group represent different views on the Seven Seals. I wont go further on this public forum, but would be happy to hear from any one privately concerning this.
Concerning harps in the book of revelation, believe it possible that some people may have had visionary input concerning this. Roger Day
--- In Anglo_Saxon_ Lyres@yahoogroup s.com, "sca_bard@.. ." <sca_bard@.. .> wrote:
>
> I'd guess they're either the seven trumpets or seven bowls of Revelation (since they're in something called the Bamberg Apocalypse):
>
> From Wikipedia:
> Bible scholars associate the seven seals with the seven Spirits of God,[1] and other Bible 'sevens'.[2] The seals contain symbols commonly interpreted as death, famine, world wars, martyrdom, earthquakes, and the Antichrist. It also states that there will be "seven trumpets" announcing aspects of the "End Times":
> mankind being judged, seas turning to blood, sores on people's bodies,
> plagues, infertility, and the introduction of "seven bowls" (in King James Version
> called "vials"). These bowls are a third each of the sea, humankind,
> water, animal life, ships, crops, and earth, all engulfed by an
> infinite abyss.
>
> More info with verse information here:
> http://www.gotquest ions.org/ seven-seals- trumpets. html
>
> It's been over ten years since my "Apocalyptic Imagination in the Americas" class (seriously!) so I don't instantly see the connection with the lyre players. They might just be humanity, about to be afflicted with what the angel is pouring out, but... it's Revelation, there's probably some symbolism going on there. I see "four living creatures and 24 elders" that fall down before the lamb all have harps in Rev 5:8, but there's only 6 guys here. Rev 14:2 mentions "a sound like harps" but... it isn't actually harps, AFAIK. It'd be helpful to know what passage was being illustrated.
>
> --- On Tue, 6/30/09, niki naeve <nnaeve@...> wrote:
>
> From: niki naeve <nnaeve@...>
> Subject: Re: [Anglo_Saxon_ Lyres] Lyre-Players_ Bamberg-Apocalyp se
> To: Anglo_Saxon_ Lyres@yahoogroup s.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 12:17 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Does anyone know what this image may mean, overall? I see
> what look like angels pouring wine (or blood) onto the heads of a
> group of lyre players. I'm positive someone has a much more
> educated artistic notion!
>
>
> http://commons. wikimedia. org/wiki/ File:BambergApoc alypseFolio038vA ngelWith7Plagues. JPG
>
>
> Niki
>
>
> > The image from Bamberg is absolutely
> fantastic!
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> Hallo Tim,
>
> thank you very much for your long response to
> "playing-technique" .
>
> Yes, this was my feeling too, when i first saw this illustration on my
> computer.I had never ssen it before in any diskussion of the
> Lyre-playing- technique (Greame Lawson, Barbara Theune-Großkopf,
> Dieter Bischop...).
>
> The illustration is published in
> "wiki-commons" :
> http://commons. wikimedia. org/wiki/ File:BambergApoc alypseFolio038vA ngelWith7Plagues. JPG
>
>
>
> Your Questions about the dating of the two "strange
> lyres":
>
> The "Aal"(Obboell) -Lyre is dated in the 12th century (King
> Waldemar).
>
> The Montpellier- Lyre is dated in the 8th century.
>
> This illustration is also published in "wiki-commons" :
>
> http://commons. wikimedia. org/wiki/ File:Psaultier_ Montpellier_ MS-H409_David. jpg
>
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Werner
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
... Tim Hallo Tim, thank you very much for your long response to "playing-technique". Yes, this was my feeling too, when i first saw this illustration on my...
Does anyone know what this image may mean, overall? I see what look like angels pouring wine (or blood) onto the heads of a group of lyre players. I'm...
I'd guess they're either the seven trumpets or seven bowls of Revelation (since they're in something called the Bamberg Apocalypse): From Wikipedia: Bible...
The Seven Seals is a controversial topic now days. In 1963, William Branham preached inspiring messages on the Seven Seals in Jeffersonville Indiana. Hundreds...
My similar thoughts. This is a "representation" picture and very stylized so it may not be that accurate. Disclaimer: I went to a Bible collage for a few...
Hi Roger, Yes it is a bit off topic, and it is not in my policy to "push" my beliefs onto anyone. After my BS degree (Env. Science) I turned down a MS program...
Hello all This is a very cool picture of lyre players indeed, but I am concerned about the conclusions we are drawing here. My main issue is that anyone who...
... Hi Simon, I agree with you that caution needs to be excersised here, but at the same time, manuscript illustrations are one of the main sources of evidence...
Having problems with message search?
Fill out this form to ensure your group is one of the first to be migrated to the new message search system.
Offline 
Send Email