--- In Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com, simon@... wrote:


Hi Simon,

I agree with you that caution needs to be excersised here, but at the same time,
manuscript illustrations are one of the main sources of evidence we have about
early European lyre-playing.

I'd never seen the Bamberg MS until this week (and it's a great boon to have
German speakers like Werner on this list, to make these sources available to
us). The manuscript is more detailed and accurate than most that I've seen, and
I want to make the most of it.

The illustration, like ALL others of its age, isn't a 'photograph'. You'll
notice that the players have two fingers hooked on TOP of the lyre, which
obviously can't support the instrument at all. But their thumbs (which COULD
support the instrument's weight) are visible in a position that can't actually
support the lyre. So again, the illustration isn't a photograph. But hey, it's
FANTASTIC!!

The image is so accurate overall (as far as we can test it) that I have no
trouble in taking its other aspects very seriously, and I think it has a lot to
offer. It obviously shows the players plucking, which is acually itself quite
interesting on an instrument that was obviously designed primarily for
strumming. And if we compare the illustration to the modern example of Ethiopian
lyres (which are both plucked and strummed), it might be giving us the third
equivalent of the three "lyre holding positions" used on modern Ethiopian lyres
- one for strumming while sitting, one for plucking while sitting, and one for
plucking while standing.

Cheers,
Tim


















> Hello all
>
> This is a very cool picture of lyre players indeed, but I am
> concerned about the conclusions we are drawing here. My main issue is
> that anyone who says it 'just works' as a playing style seems to be
> ignoring that the index and fourth fingers poke right through the
> strings and curl rouns on this side of them. Rather diferent from
> simply plucking with both hands!
>
> The two strange lyres - this is in my opinion merely artistic
> drift... look at a stylised guinness logo or perhaps the Musicians
> Union logo to see this kind of thing still happening...
>
> Simon
>
>
> On 30 Jun 2009, at 06:47, wernerbuchin wrote:
>
> >> The image from Bamberg is absolutely fantastic!
> > Tim
> >
> > Hallo Tim,
> > thank you very much for your long response to "playing-technique".
> > Yes, this was my feeling too, when i first saw this illustration on
> > my computer.I had never ssen it before in any diskussion of the
> > Lyre-playing-technique (Greame Lawson, Barbara Theune-Großkopf,
> > Dieter Bischop...).
> > The illustration is published in "wiki-commons":
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/
> > File:BambergApocalypseFolio038vAngelWith7Plagues.JPG
> >
> > Your Questions about the dating of the two "strange lyres":
> > The "Aal"(Obboell)-Lyre is dated in the 12th century (King Waldemar).
> > The Montpellier-Lyre is dated in the 8th century.
> > This illustration is also published in "wiki-commons":
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Psaultier_Montpellier_MS-
> > H409_David.jpg
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Werner