> The image from Bamberg is absolutely fantastic!

Tim



Hallo Tim,

thank you very much for your long response to "playing-technique".

Yes, this was my feeling too, when i first saw this illustration on my

computer.I had never ssen it before in any diskussion of the

Lyre-playing-technique (Greame Lawson, Barbara Theune-Großkopf, Dieter

Bischop...).

The illustration is published in "wiki-commons":

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BambergApocalypseFolio038vAngelWith7Plagu\

es.JPG



Your Questions about the dating of the two "strange lyres":

The "Aal"(Obboell)-Lyre is dated in the 12th century (King Waldemar).

The Montpellier-Lyre is dated in the 8th century.

This illustration is also published in "wiki-commons":

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Psaultier_Montpellier_MS-H409_David.jpg



Best wishes

Werner

> The image from Bamberg is absolutely fantastic!
Tim

Hallo Tim,
thank you very much for your long response to "playing-technique".
Yes, this was my feeling too, when i first saw this illustration on my computer.I had never ssen it before in any diskussion of the Lyre-playing-technique (Greame Lawson, Barbara Theune-Großkopf, Dieter Bischop...).
The illustration is published in "wiki-commons":

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BambergApocalypseFolio038vAngelWith7Plagues.JPG

Your Questions about the dating of the two "strange lyres":
The "Aal"(Obboell)-Lyre is dated in the 12th century (King Waldemar).
The Montpellier-Lyre is dated in the 8th century.
This illustration is also published in "wiki-commons":
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Psaultier_Montpellier_MS-H409_David.jpg

Best wishes
Werner

The Seven Seals is a controversial topic now days. In 1963, William Branham

preached inspiring messages on the Seven Seals in Jeffersonville Indiana.

Hundreds of books have been written on the Seven Seals since then. Even Billy

Graham dealt with the Seven Seals in his book Approaching Hoof Beats.

I do not mean to cause confusion, since members of this group  represent

different views on the Seven Seals. I wont go further on this public forum, but

would be happy to hear from any one privately concerning this.

Concerning harps in the book of revelation, believe it possible that some people

may have had visionary input concerning this.  Roger Day



--- In Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com, "sca_bard@..." <sca_bard@...> wrote:

>

> I'd guess they're either the seven trumpets or seven bowls of Revelation

(since they're in something called the Bamberg Apocalypse):

>

> From Wikipedia:

> Bible scholars associate the seven seals with the seven Spirits of God,[1] and

other Bible 'sevens'.[2] The seals contain symbols commonly interpreted as

death, famine, world wars, martyrdom, earthquakes, and the Antichrist. It also

states that there will be "seven trumpets" announcing aspects of the "End

Times":

> mankind being judged, seas turning to blood, sores on people's bodies,

> plagues, infertility, and the introduction of "seven bowls" (in King James

Version

> called "vials"). These bowls are a third each of the sea, humankind,

> water, animal life, ships, crops, and earth, all engulfed by an

> infinite abyss.

>

> More info with verse information here:

> http://www.gotquestions.org/seven-seals-trumpets.html

>

> It's been over ten years since my "Apocalyptic Imagination in the Americas"

class (seriously!) so I don't instantly see the connection with the lyre

players.  They might just be humanity, about to be afflicted with what the angel

is pouring out, but... it's Revelation, there's probably some symbolism going on

there.  I see "four living creatures and 24 elders" that fall down before the

lamb all have harps in Rev 5:8, but there's only 6 guys here.  Rev 14:2 mentions

"a sound like harps" but... it isn't actually harps, AFAIK.  It'd be helpful to

know what passage was being illustrated.

>

> --- On Tue, 6/30/09, niki naeve <nnaeve@...> wrote:

>

> From: niki naeve <nnaeve@...>

> Subject: Re: [Anglo_Saxon_Lyres] Lyre-Players_Bamberg-Apocalypse

> To: Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com

> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 12:17 PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Does anyone know what this image may mean, overall?  I see

> what look like angels pouring wine (or blood) onto the heads of a

> group of lyre players.  I'm positive someone has a much more

> educated artistic notion!

>

>

> http://commons. wikimedia. org/wiki/ File:BambergApoc alypseFolio038vA

ngelWith7Plagues. JPG

>

>

> Niki

>

>

> > The image from Bamberg is absolutely

> fantastic!

>

> Tim

>

>

>

> Hallo Tim,

>

> thank you very much for your long response to

> "playing-technique".

>

> Yes, this was my feeling too, when i first saw this illustration on my

> computer.I had never ssen it before in any diskussion of the

> Lyre-playing- technique (Greame Lawson, Barbara Theune-Großkopf,

> Dieter Bischop...).

>

> The illustration is published in

> "wiki-commons":

> http://commons. wikimedia. org/wiki/ File:BambergApoc alypseFolio038vA

ngelWith7Plagues. JPG

>

>

>

> Your Questions about the dating of the two "strange

> lyres":

>

> The "Aal"(Obboell)-Lyre is dated in the 12th century (King

> Waldemar).

>

> The Montpellier- Lyre is dated in the 8th century.

>

> This illustration is also published in "wiki-commons":

>

> http://commons. wikimedia. org/wiki/ File:Psaultier_ Montpellier_

MS-H409_David.jpg

>

>

>

> Best wishes

>

> Werner

>

>

>

>         

>         

>         

>         

>         

>         

>         

>         

>

Hello all



This is a very cool picture of lyre players indeed, but I am

concerned about the conclusions we are drawing here. My main issue is

that anyone who says it 'just works' as a playing style seems to be

ignoring that the index and fourth fingers poke right through the

strings and curl rouns on this side of them. Rather diferent from

simply plucking with both hands!



The two strange lyres - this is in my opinion merely artistic

drift... look at a stylised guinness logo or perhaps the Musicians

Union logo to see this kind of thing still happening...



Simon





On 30 Jun 2009, at 06:47, wernerbuchin wrote:



>> The image from Bamberg is absolutely fantastic!

> Tim

>

> Hallo Tim,

> thank you very much for your long response to "playing-technique".

> Yes, this was my feeling too, when i first saw this illustration on

> my computer.I had never ssen it before in any diskussion of the

> Lyre-playing-technique (Greame Lawson, Barbara Theune-Großkopf,

> Dieter Bischop...).

> The illustration is published in "wiki-commons":

> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/

> File:BambergApocalypseFolio038vAngelWith7Plagues.JPG

>

> Your Questions about the dating of the two "strange lyres":

> The "Aal"(Obboell)-Lyre is dated in the 12th century (King Waldemar).

> The Montpellier-Lyre is dated in the 8th century.

> This illustration is also published in "wiki-commons":

> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Psaultier_Montpellier_MS-

> H409_David.jpg

>

> Best wishes

> Werner

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

--- In Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com, simon@... wrote:





Hi Simon,



I agree with you that caution needs to be excersised here, but at the same time,

manuscript illustrations are one of the main sources of evidence we have about

early European lyre-playing.



I'd never seen the Bamberg MS until this week (and it's a great boon to have

German speakers like Werner on this list, to make these sources available to

us). The manuscript is more detailed and accurate than most that I've seen, and

I want to make the most of it.



The illustration, like ALL others of its age, isn't a 'photograph'. You'll

notice that the players have two fingers hooked on TOP of the lyre, which

obviously can't support the instrument at all. But their thumbs (which COULD

support the instrument's weight) are visible in a position that can't actually

support the lyre.  So again, the illustration isn't a photograph. But hey, it's

FANTASTIC!!



The image is so accurate overall (as far as we can test it) that I have no

trouble in taking its other aspects very seriously, and I think it has a lot to

offer. It obviously shows the players plucking, which is acually itself quite

interesting on an instrument that was obviously designed primarily for

strumming. And if we compare the illustration to the modern example of Ethiopian

lyres (which are both plucked and strummed), it might be giving us the third

equivalent of the three "lyre holding positions" used on modern Ethiopian lyres

- one for strumming while sitting, one for plucking while sitting, and one for

plucking while standing.



Cheers,

Tim





































> Hello all

>

> This is a very cool picture of lyre players indeed, but I am

> concerned about the conclusions we are drawing here. My main issue is

> that anyone who says it 'just works' as a playing style seems to be

> ignoring that the index and fourth fingers poke right through the

> strings and curl rouns on this side of them. Rather diferent from

> simply plucking with both hands!

>

> The two strange lyres - this is in my opinion merely artistic

> drift... look at a stylised guinness logo or perhaps the Musicians

> Union logo to see this kind of thing still happening...

>

> Simon

>

>

> On 30 Jun 2009, at 06:47, wernerbuchin wrote:

>

> >> The image from Bamberg is absolutely fantastic!

> > Tim

> >

> > Hallo Tim,

> > thank you very much for your long response to "playing-technique".

> > Yes, this was my feeling too, when i first saw this illustration on

> > my computer.I had never ssen it before in any diskussion of the

> > Lyre-playing-technique (Greame Lawson, Barbara Theune-Großkopf,

> > Dieter Bischop...).

> > The illustration is published in "wiki-commons":

> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/

> > File:BambergApocalypseFolio038vAngelWith7Plagues.JPG

> >

> > Your Questions about the dating of the two "strange lyres":

> > The "Aal"(Obboell)-Lyre is dated in the 12th century (King Waldemar).

> > The Montpellier-Lyre is dated in the 8th century.

> > This illustration is also published in "wiki-commons":

> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Psaultier_Montpellier_MS-

> > H409_David.jpg

> >

> > Best wishes

> > Werner