I would just to clarify some issues in this discussion.

Grant said "The one Andante movement may stand on its own from an
entertainment perspective, but it is not an entire work
on its own by any means." You have a point that one cannot judge an
entire piece or a composer's oeuvre by one movement--and this point is
entirely irrelvent here, as this is not at all what Monart is doing. Why
argue where there is no disagreement?

Monart is using this "Andante movement" as an example of what he finds
to be an rare exception in Shostakovich's music--an expression of
untainted joy/ etc. If, as Grant claims, Monart had "obviously" never
heard any other Shostakovich, why would Monart say this quality is rare
in Shostakovich's music? Comparison and contrast by definition requires
looking at more than one thing. Grant, you yourself have said "...if you
know the music... then this element of protest and pain of persecution
is overwhelmingly obvious."-- so it seems as you should agree with
Monart that, in terms of emotional quality in Shostakovich's music,
pain/torment/angst is the norm, whereas untainted joy/tenderness/heroism
is the exception. Judging the value of these expressive choices is
another question, in which you may disagree.

When I consider sections of Shostakovich's music that seem "untainted"
in joy or heroic character, in the context of the whole piece or all his
work, their joyful character seems to become tainted. It has often been
said that such heroic-sounding momements (such as the character of the
Finale of his 5th Symphony) are intended as parodies of the character of
Soviet villains, rather than sincere expressions of admirable virtues.
When I see moments of joy and tenderness in the context of violence and
torment, these moments are less clearly life-affirming and more
ambiguous in terms of the sense of life expressed. The point is that
considering this Andante in its wider context probably only helps
Monart's argument that joy is rare in Shostakovich's music.

Analyzing the features of a single movement of music does not reveal
one's "blatantly obvious" "total lack of musical knowledge." In fact,
Grant, as you seem to be one to like credentials, I have a degree in
music, and through my studies, movements of music were frequently
studied for features within themselves, as well as within the context of
the piece and a composer's oeuvre.

Grant, you are complaining that evidence is not provided for Monart's
assertions. Monart said that "Whether Shostokovich was a dissident or
sympathizer of communism may be debatable, but whatever dissidence he
did show, in music or in words,
is neither courageous nor inspiring." Personally, I find many moments in
Shostakovich's music that feel courageous and inspiring. But I think
that Monart was referring more to the premise that Shostakovich
protested the Soviet condition through angst in his music---Monart finds
this form of protest "neither courageous nor inspiring." Argue with his
premises or conclusion as you like. But Grant, please provide some clear
evidence for your own bold assertions:

"It is more than obvious that you do not in fact know or have studied
more than this one section of one work by
Shostakovich."

"Your statement shows an outrageous lack of knowledge
of this man's music. "

"Your total lack of musical knowledge is blatantly
obvious."


To me it seems that the real unanswered questions are:

What is it really that Shostakovich's music expresses?
Can music that expresses pain and suffering be beautiful?
What role should dissonance/conflict/"dissidence" play in music?
What is the proper artistic response to pain and suffering in the real
world?
What in music is inspiring and courageous?


Nova

Grant A. B. Gilman wrote:

>
> From: Grant Gilman
> To: Monart Pon
>
>
> Monart wrote:
> > Shostakovich did not value philosophy in any way like Rand
> > did, and thus suffered under a totalitarian Russia with little protest
> > until his death in Moscow 1975.
>
> This statement that Shostakovich "suffered...with little protest" is not
> entirely true. Since Stalin's media publicly tore down Shostakovich's 4th
> symphony, Shostakovich thereafter found many ways to inject protest into
> his music. Depending upon what you read this topic may seem dedebatable.
> However, if you know the music...and I mean REALLY know the music, then
> this element of protest and pain of persecution is overwhelmingly obvious.
>
>
>
> Grant A. B. Gilman
> ggmuze@...
> (443)286.2160
> Campus Box #214
>
> "When people refuse to consider the source of wealth, what they refuse
> to consider is the fact that wealth is the product of man's intellect,
> of his creative ability, fully as much as is art, science, philosophy
> or any other human value."
>
> -Ayn Rand
>
>
>
>
>
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