THREAD # 487

Ollie Revisited
Posted by Fuzzy on October 30, 2005, 9:10 am

Some years ago, some of us were arguing about the word/name 'ollie'
in "Over the Mountain", the song Don sings in "Playin' Favorites". A
memorable contribution to the discussion was Cookie's suggestion
that 'ollie' might be an owl!!
Sometime in 2002, Dejay gave all of us a quiz on Alan's Forum about
the origin of the song. And the answer he gave: an old Irish song
called "Where My Eileen is Waiting". I was interested enough in the
song to order a copy of Johnny McEvoy's "20 Greatest Hits" which
included this song.

I noted that McEvoy sang "For I was in love with a colleen" instead
of "an ollie" and ventured to suggest in the forum that "ollie" may
be a corruption of the Irish "colleen".

However, a certain elf-lover whose name I shall not mention, shot me
down and said that she'd been told by Michael Johnathan (the
American folk singer) who'd been told by the late John Hartford,
that "ollie" meant "honey" in a certain part of America. Since I did
not think it worth my while to tangle with the said elf-lover, and
John Hartford was no longer around, I held my peace but did my own
research into online American slang dictionaries and any other
dictionary I could access, but the only meaning of "ollie" I could
find was connected with a skateboard, which is, I believe, a very
modern invention.

Then I went to the Mudcat Cafe, an excellent website for folk songs,
which had its own forum, and asked certain questions. Before long, I
was amazed to discover that "Over the Mountain" was an original
creation by an Irish American from Massachusetts called William
Scanlon. He wrote it in 1882 and there is documentary evidence of
this. (His surname is sometimes spelt 'Scanlan' and he himself is
sometimes referred to as 'Bill Scanlon'.) Information about him can
be found at "Composers-Lyricists Database"
http://nfo.net/cal/ts1.html, where his name is spelt 'Scanlan'. But
nowhere on the Internet could I find the original Scanlon lyrics
of "Over the Mountain"

A few day ago, I went back to the Mudcat Cafe to find out if anyone
had made any discoveries about the enigmatic "ollie". Lo and behold,
there was a long thread on Uncle Dave Macon's lyrics. It was very
informative. From it I discovered that he was the first person to
have recorded the song, in 1929. There is a CD with a collection of
his old songs on Amazon.com and this song was one of them. Some of
the posters on the thread were as baffled by "ollie" as we were, and
then came this letter, providing the original sheet music of the
song by William Scanlon. Let me quote the letter in full:

>>Dear Mr. Ritscher:

Shirley Wall forwarded your research request concerning the lyrics
to "Over the Mountain" by William Scanlon. I have pulled the sheet
music in our collection, which is in a bound volume. It is dated
1882 and here are the lyrics:

1. I'm always light hearted and aisy,
Not a care in the world have I,
Because I am lov'd by a Colleen,
I couldn't forget if I try.
She lives far away o'er the mountain,
Where I know she's still thinking of me,
Ar-rah! Cush-la Mc-Chree were I with you,
This moment how happy I'd be.

CHORUS

Its over, yes, over the mountain,
Where the little thrush sings on the tree;
In a cabin all covered with ivy,
There my Eily is waiting for me!

2. The day I bid good-bye to Eily,
That day I will ne'er forget,
How the tears bubbled up from their slumber,
I fancy I see them yet.
They look'd like the pearls in the ocean,
As she wept the tears of love,
Says she, "Teddy my boy, don't forget me,
'Till we meet again here or above.

CHORUS

3. Oh, water and land may divide us,
Friends like the flow'rs come and go;
The face of my Eily will cheer me,
For in that dear face I well know.
The imprint of love and devotion.
Surrounded by thoughts chaste and pure,
Will serve as the star to the sailor,
Whilst plodding the wold raging moor.

CHORUS

Hope this helps. The name in this version is Eily, no where does it
say Anna Lee. Let me know if there is something else we can help
with.

Lucinda Cockrell
--
Lucinda Poole Cockrell, C.A.
Coordinator of Research Collections
The Center for Popular Music
MTSU Box 41
Murfreesboro, TN 37132
615/898-5884
615/898-5829 (FAX)
http://popmusic.mtsu.edu <<

Another contributor then said that Uncle Dave Macon, being from
Central Tennessee, might pronounce "Eily" like "ollie", hence the
confusion over the word/name. Another said: "... 'my Eily' works
well in most places. Maybe the song had been 'folk processed' by the
time he learned it, or maybe he was singing it from memory and
changed a few things here and there."

We all know the changes Don made to "The Mountains of Mourne" in the
same album. Guess singers do it all the time to the lyrics they get
from someone else. It would be interesting to find out where Don got
his "Over the Mountain" from, and compare his lyrics with those of
Uncle Dave Macon's. If Don had got them from the original source, ie
Scanlon, he must have edited them quite a bit, and made the song
much more singable.

So, it looks to me as if "Where My Eileen is Waiting" might have
been derived from "Over the Mountain" and not vice versa. I tried to
ask an Irish folk song forum about the origin of WMEIW, but nobody
seems to know. I don't think it is heretical to say that a song that
seems so Irish originated in the USA, when "South of the Border",
which seems so Texan, really originated in Northern Ireland.

I'd be happy to get your responses. I don't want to post this on the
other forum in case the elf-lover comes in and sabotages the
discussion in her typical familiar way!!


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by Karman on October 30, 2005, 9:39 am, in reply to "Ollie
Revisited"
If "ollie" is an American slang expression meaning "honey," then
it's a very well-kept secret. I think the nutjob was just repeating
what the voices in her head told her.


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by Dejay on October 30, 2005, 10:43 am, in reply to "Re:
Ollie Revisited"
This was originally an irish song entitled "Where my Eileen is
waiting". Where Don sings "Ollie", the original song says "Eileen".
The rest of the lyrics are more or less the same, which suggests to
me that "Ollie" almost certainly refers to a lady....perhaps short
for Olive(?).


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by Fuzzy on October 30, 2005, 11:05 am, in reply to "Re:
Ollie Revisited"
Dejay, what evidence have you got that this was originally an Irish
song? I have cited documentary evidence that there was a writer of
the song and a date when he wrote it. Is it not possible that "Where
My Eileen Is Waiting" is derived from "Over the Mountain"?
In both Scanlon's "Over the Mountain" and McEvoy's version of "Where
My Eileen is Waiting", the first mention of the girl says "colleen".
Later on in Scanlon, the name is "Eily", while in McEvoy it
is "Eileen". In Don's version, it is "ollie" throughout
(no "colleen") and this is similar to Uncle Dave Macon's,
where "Eily" possibly sounds like "ollie". Could Don have drawn his
version from Uncle Dave Macon's.
Dejay, have you come across a collection of old (and I mean really
old) Irish folk songs that include "Where My Eileen is Waiting"?
McEvoy is in his 50's at the most, and that's the only version of
this song I could get. I tried looking at lists of old Irish folk
songs, and they don't contain this song.
I'm not trying to win an argument, but just trying to establish the
truth.


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by Bill N on October 30, 2005, 4:11 pm, in reply to "Re:
Ollie Revisited"
I have wondered about the meaning of Ollie too, as I have really
enjoyed the song, as sung by both Don McLean and Michael Johnathon.
I found a website which gave the lyrics of Where My Eileen Is
Waiting and it said it was taken from Folksongs And Ballads Popular
In Ireland by Ossian Publications.
This does not say it is actually an Irish song and, based upon
Fuzzy's research, I wonder if,in fact, it is an Irish-American song.
My main reason for thinking this is that, when Don sang Over The
Mountain in Dublin in 2004, there was not a flicker of recognition
from the Irish audience. They joined in with other Irish songs and
it seemed clear they had no knowledge of Over The Mountain.
Both songs are so similar that they can be called the same song, but
I think I go along with Fuzzy on this one.
Unless you know better!!


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by Dejay on October 30, 2005, 6:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Ollie
Revisited"
Oh dear......what have I done now!?
Ok, I have searched through my old song books and right at the
bottom of the box I found the book which BillN made a reference to.
The book is entitled "Folksongs And Ballads Popular In Ireland, vol.
3". "Where my Eileen is Waiting" is on page 14 and there is another
page in the book where 1 or 2 lines of comments are included for
each song contained. The only comments made about this song are to
the fact, that Don McLean gave the song a "new lease of life".
The smallprint at the bottom of page 14 says:
"(c) 1980 Published by Ossian Publications, Cork, Ireland. Copyright
secured".
Information to whether the actual song itself is copyrighted or
trad. is unfortunately not given.
There is an email address on the inside back cover of the book which
is a different one to that given on the Ossian web-site. Fuzzy, I
will send them an email and let you know what comes of it.


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by Fuzzy on October 31, 2005, 4:00 am, in reply to "Re: Ollie
Revisited"
Good idea, Dejay. You've been collecting song books a long time!
I'm glad to hear from Bill N and Dejay about the existence of the
book "Folksongs And Ballads Popular In Ireland" and that "My Eileen
is Waiting for Me" is in it.


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by Fuzzy on November 5, 2005, 3:43 pm, in reply to "Re: Ollie
Revisited"
While waiting for Dejay to hear about "Where My Eileen is Waiting",
I have something exciting to report.
I actually managed to access the Library of Congress's collections
and found direct confirmation that William J. Scanlan wrote "Over
the Mountain". I also found the sheet music for the song.
No, I'm not a hacker. This is open to the public. Let me give the
link to the Library of Congress's "I hear America singing" page with
a searchable facility. Please remember the name Scanlan is spelt
with an 'a', not an 'o' in the second syllable. And here is the url
of the page that turned up after my search, if it's still there.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cocoon/ihas/loc.natlib.ihas.100008800/default.h
tml
Link: Library of Congress page link


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by BillH on November 5, 2005, 5:20 pm, in reply to "Re: Ollie
Revisited"
Fuzzy
Great detective work here....you really have made an effort on this.
It is interesting that the 'Playin Favourites' cover shows this
as 'arr & adpt McLean' which implies to me that Don thinks it is a
traditional song - or maybe just not registered wherever these
things are registered.
Anyway I really think you should put some of this stuff on the main
site...it deserves a wider audience than it will get in our little
corner of cyberspace. Less the gnome references of course .


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by Dejay on November 5, 2005, 6:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Ollie
Revisited"
Great work, Fuzzy!
I wrote to the Ossian publishers last sunday but they haven't
answered yet. These sort of places rarely do answer such enquiries
promptly...if indeed at all.
We'll give 'em a bit more time to think about it.


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by hannah on November 5, 2005, 7:03 pm, in reply to "Re:
Ollie Revisited"
Well done Fuzzy. That's really fascinating. And some music with it
too.


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by Bill N on November 5, 2005, 9:35 pm, in reply to "Re:
Ollie Revisited"
Fuzzy, I noticed that "Over The Mountain" is from what is referred
to as Scanlan's highly successful drama, "Friend And Foe".
His Publisher Harms is from Broadway, New York, so it is likely
that "Friend And Foe" was a Broadway show.
It is looking increasingly that "Over The Mountain" is the original
song and that Ollie is probably a corruption of Eily, the named used
by Scanlan in the sheet music.
I sent an email to Michael Johnathon a few days ago , seeking an
explanation for Ollie, but have not yet had a reply.


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by BillH on November 5, 2005, 10:13 pm, in reply to "Re:
Ollie Revisited"
Looks llike you are right Bill. The following is extracted from the
Composers and Lyricists database..
William J. Scanlan
b. Feb. 14, 1856, Springfield, MA, USA, d. Feb. 19, 1898, New York,
NY, USA.
Overview
Scanlan was, at only 13 years old, a boy temperance singer. For
seven years, he toured New England with different temperance
lecturers. It was his job to sing and to provide the entertainment
at their meetings. When he was 20 years old, he formed a vaudeville
team with William Cronin, an Irish comedian.

Brief Chronology of his songs:
1872
"Jim Fisk", originally credited to Scanlan, but the eminent
musicologist, Sigmund Spaeth, notes that doubts have arisen as to
the authorship of the song.
1878 to 1871 Scanlan appeared in stage musicals with Minnie Palmer.
1872 Scanlan appears in his own production of 'Friend and Foe'.
"Peek-a-Boo', The first successful song definitely known to be his.
"Moonlight at Killarney"
"Over the Mountain"
"There's Always a Seat in the Parlor for You"
Ca. 1883 He is known to be a songwriter' singer, and actor in stage
productions of the impressario, Augustus Pitou.
1883 For show 'The Irish Minstrel", he wrote
"My Nellie's Blue Eyes"
"Scanlan's Rose Song"
"I Love Music"
"Bye, Bye Baby"
"What's In a Kiss"
1885 For show 'Shane-na-lawn', he wrote
"Peggy O'Moore"
"You and I, Love"
"Gathering the Myrtle With Mary"
"Remember Boy, You're Irish"
"Why Paddy's Always Poor"
1888 For show 'Myles Arroon', he wrote
"Swing Song"
"My Maggie"
"Live, My Love, O Live"
1891 For show 'Mavourneen', he wrote
"Mavourneen"
"Molly O"

It was during the run of this show "Mavourneen' (opened Sept. 28,
1891, in New York's 14th Street Theater), that William Scanlan began
showing signs of mental instability. He continued to work until, by
December 25, he was completely insane. Committed to the Bloomingdale
Asylum in White Plains, N.Y. on January 7, 1892, he remained there
until his death on February 19, 1898


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by Fuzzy on November 6, 2005, 3:27 am, in reply to "Re: Ollie
Revisited"
Thanks BillH, BillN, Dejay and Hannah for your responses, BillN for
drawing attention to the Broadway connection, and BillH for
confirming it. I just didn't notice these things since my eyes just
saw the words "Over the Mountain" and ignored most other things.
BillH, I think I'll act on your suggestion and post a polite version
of my findings on the official website.
To play my own devil's advocate, though, it's just possible that
William Scanlan may have composed "Over the Mountain" based on his
memory of an old Irish folksong called "Where My Eileen is Waiting"!
There is a place in Dublin called the Irish Traditional Music
Archive where members of the public can come in person and research
whatever it is they want to research. They have a website, but they
apologise for not having enough staff to handle e-mail enquiries
from members of the public. I should have mentioned this to you guys
who were going to the Irish concerts earlier this year, but my mind
was not on "ollie" then! Anyway, if ever anyone goes to Dublin
again, this might be a good place to look and perhaps settle once
and for all, which song came first.
Link: http://www.itma.ie/


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by hannah on November 6, 2005, 4:21 am, in reply to "Re:
Ollie Revisited"
Well ain't it all the bloomin' shame.....
How very sad. I spent the earlier part of this evening playing
through the sheet music of Over the Mountain by Mr.
Scanlan and thinking how nice it was, particularly the chord on
the "ivy" - There my Ei-ly is waiting = it's a very attractive chord
and Don hasn't included it in his version - I haven't worked it out
yet - but its very nice and takes the song back to its oldy worldy
feel setting. How nice though that Don gave this song a whole new
life.


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by Fuzzy on November 8, 2005, 1:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Ollie
Revisited"
Hannah, how's your guitar playing of the song getting on?
Interesting to hear there's a dimension of the song we haven't
heard! When you've worked it out, perhaps you can record it so some
of us can hear how it sounds.


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by BillH on November 8, 2005, 4:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Ollie
Revisited"
I'm not one to tell tales but on Saturday night I doubt our Hannah
could have seen the guitar, let alone played it. Actually, she might
have seen two!!


Re: Ollie Revisited
Posted by Fuzzy on November 8, 2005, 4:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Ollie
Revisited"
Ooo la la, that must have been some party, Hannah!