--- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, Nick Arteaga <nickarteaga12@...>
wrote:
> The three beat you describe actually has nothing to do with actual Tangos. I'm
certain it comes from the cuban contradanse.

That was why I included the more authentic tango beat notation in the first
note, so that the distinction between the real tango and the Americanized tango,
really the modified habanera, would be clear.

> The cuban contradanses by Ignacio Cervantes (1847-1905) often use the three
beat feel you describe in your e-mail. A piece by Cervantes such as La Carcajada
uses this rythem in the left hand almost throughout this entire piece. Other
pieces such as La Celosa he alternates the three and four beat feel in the left
hand. About 40 contradanses by Cervantes exist but I do not know when they were
all published. I do know that six were published in the U.S in 1899.

I am familiar with the pieces, and do agree with that, and they are also
habaneras, which many music historians attribute as an African or Afro-American
rhythm, not Latin. I am torn on this, since many of the African rhythms I have
studied through a couple of African musicians our church is associated with are
much more complex, and not usually grounded in 4s. I would more inclined toward
calling the American tango a hybrid Afro-American/Latin beat, with origins in
Spain and Northern Africa, but have not spent enough time with my head wrapped
around it to be certain.

> I also have a folio of tango's published in Argentina (and Bolivia) during the
ragtime years and not one of them has the three beat rythem. All have the 4 beat
bass you describe alternating with an even 1234 bass. Only occasionally does the
choro rythem (de-dum-de-dum-dum) appear in Argentinian tangos.

Pretty close to what I noted in my original message. They are done with an even
four beats, but with the & on that fourth beat, with the & often being used as a
pickup note. There are at least two other patterns that appear in most tangos to
break up that rhythm, used in the sense of a break in ragtime or jazz.

> It would certainly be interesting to find a piece published by an American
born composer that uses this three beat rythem prior to 1898. Perhaps Jess
Pickets "dream" which was played at the colombia expostion in 1894 (according to
Blesh in they all played ragtime). ????????
>

Perhaps, but where do we find that? I am not looking for it any time soon, but
will note it for a future search when I'm in Chicago or somewhere it might have
appeared.


Thanks for the great observations and reinforcements.

Finest, Bill E.

Rick Benjamin should be regarded very highly with his knowledge of William H.
Tyers, as well as many other composers from the era.
For those on the east coast, Rick and his Paragon Ragtime Orchestra are going to
be performing tomorrow at the Majestic Theater in Gettysburg, PA. They're doing
their program "The Clown Princes" where they underscore three silent films: one
Keaton, one Lloyd, and one Chaplin. Here's a link to it with more information
http://tiny.cc/CRUuZ
I myself am going up early (I'm a friend of Rick's) and can ask a question or
two about Tyers if you want.
Best,
Andrew Greene

--- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "dr_ragtime" <dr_ragtime@...> wrote:
>
> OOPS
>
> Its very early for me.....that is Rick Benjamin
>

OOPS

Its very early for me.....that is Rick Benjamin

Bill

Have you considered contacting Rick Smith of Paragon ragtime Orchestra about
info regarding William Tyers.  His Black Manhattan CD has quite good liner notes
about the Cleff Club and all the associated musicians .


                                Bill

I decided I had time to locate this in my notes:

President Roosevelt took part in the cakewalk and danced the Virginia reel in
the White House on Christmas night as a finale to the Christmas festivities,
writes a Washington correspondent to the New York World.  Senator Lodge and some
young people, invited guests, also took part in the festivities.

The frolic took place in the historic east room.  Amid much laughter the party
formed for the Virginia reel.  The orchestra struck up, and the president of the
United States led the dance up and down the line, executing many fancy steps.

Mrs. Roosevelt and the other ladies in the party were almost hysterical over the
antics of the president, who entered into the dance with all his accustomed
spirit.  The president chassed, sidestepped and 'balanced all," while the little
Roosevelt boys gave vent to howls of merriment.

Following the president came Henry Cabot Lodge, United States senator from
Massachusetts, usually staid, dignified, stately.  On Christmas night he forgot
all this and danced with all the vim and abandon of his young son, who was
present.  The Roosevelt children guyed the senator just as they had their
father.

For thirty minutes the reel was danced.  Then the orchestra struck up "There'll
Be a Hot Time."  The guests yelled, and some one started a cakewalk.  The
president chose a partner and led the cakewalk down the long east room,
executing fancy, buck and wing steps, while others in the party clapped "juba."

"Go it, pop!" yelled the Roosevelt children.  Mrs. Roosevelt laughed until the
tears came to her eyes.  After a few minutes of "A Hot Time the orchestra began
playing "Whistling Rufus," a real cakewalk tune, and the entire party joined in
the contest.  The young son of Senator Lodge soon demonstrated that he was the
champion cakewalker, and the president allowed him to lead.  After the cakewalk
came an old fashioned country square dance.

This is a description of a Christmas 1901 White House party.  Ed Berlin quotes a
portion of that on p. 153 of King of Ragtime.

Daughter Alice was a turkey trotter and fan of other ragtime era music.

Sue

Yesterday and today I have revisited (with fortunately little to add) William
Tyers, who is often underestimated for his role as a composer and arranger, and
more known for Maori, Panama and his association with the Clef Club.

I would like to first reiterate, as I had before, that two factoids from They
All Played Ragtime simply have not played out. First, according to an interview
as early as 1901, and the 1870/1880/1900/1910/1920 Census he was born in
Virginia, not somewhere in the Caribbean. In fact, while Richmond is often
cited, it was just a bit south in Petersburg.

Secondly, his birth year is not 1876 as usually cited, as his very existence in
the 1870 Census sort of negates that idea. Also, on an 1891 manifest when he
returned from his European adventure, lists him as a musician (so we know it's
him) and 24 (which is clearly different than 15, even if a bit exaggerated).
I've made requests for this to be changed ranging from small sites to the
Library of Congress, so this will hopefully cascade soon.

But when looking through some of his pieces I noted that The Trail from 1898 had
a three beat habenera behind it, and it therefore might be the first true
American tango (or pseudo-tango). Yes, I know, Gottschalk. But his South
American pieces were subtly different in nature, more in the manner of a choro
in some cases. I'll have to do more study, but am putting this out so that there
might be discussion concerning it.

The Trail is not as sophisticated as Maori (1908) or Panama (1910/1911), but it
still has that feel and predates them significantly, so is worth consideration.
For my money, Porto Rico, which came before Panama, has even more tango
tendencies in it, and I often play it a choro, but Tyers, better trained than
Dabney to some extent, absolutely nailed it.

For clarification - the tango we are talking about is not the pure Latin tango
which might be stated as 1 2 3 4&1 2 3 4&1, etc. Most American tangos from the
ragtime era were simply modified habeneras, and came in either three beat or
four beat flavors, the three beat being more removed from the march form that
some of them took.

For clarification, the habenera from Carmen, which is pretty much the same as
Solace in feel, would be a four beat, while the habenera from Panama would be a
three beat.

Four beat: 1--&3-4-1--&3-4
Three beat: 1--&--4-1--&--4

The latter has a pure syncopation in the left hand, which is part of the
American identity from what I have been able to ascertain. Bizet used the four
beat in 1875 and it existed before then. But the three beat "tango" is harder to
find before 1900.

Any ideas of early pieces that would represent this? Please help me fill in some
gaps here.

http://ragpiano.com/comps/wtyers.shtml

Finest, Bill E.

On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:19:15 -0000, you wrote:

>If I were to order a new digi online sometime, how can I tell if it has
"weighted keys"?  I was looking over a couple of online music establishments and
I couldn't find that mentioned this.
>
>Are there some models that *ALWAYS* come standard with weighted keys?
>
>Regards,
>Fred M. Cain

In general, if it is a digital PIANO it will usually say it has
weighted keys, and if it is a keyboard [not a piano] it will NOT
have weighted keys.

The following applies to all the digital pianos I've seen...

A digital piano's keyboard is weighted to simulate the action of a
traditional piano and is velocity sensitive so that the volume of
the sounds depends on how fast the keys are pressed.

Some have a complex action incorporating actual hammers in order to
better simulate the touch of a grand piano; these hammers do not
actually hit strings, but since a real piano's hammer is in free
flight when it contacts the string it could be argued that this
difference would not affect the instrument's touch anyway.

Many digital pianos, especially those which physically resemble a
piano, have built-in pedals which modify the instrument's behaviour
in the same way pedals on a regular piano do. As with traditional
pianos, some digital pianos omit the sostenuto and/or the una corda
pedals. Some digital pianos have jacks for pedals to be attached at
the user's option.

The Yamaha P70 that we have has the jack and we have one pedal
plugged into it, which is all the P70 accommodates.

RsH

*blush*

Thanks John.

To be fair, even though this research over the last decade has been a passion of
mine, getting more facts than have been in print to date, a lot of it is simply
supplementing known databases of research, of which the majority was pioneered
by Trebor Tichenor, Dave Jasen, Gene Jones, Dr. Ed Berlin and Mike Montgomery.
There are a few composers who have been extensively explored by one or two
singular biographies.

My intent was, and remains, making them interesting as people, not just as named
composers. By seeing how their lives progressed, contemporary readers can often
relate to them. Knowing that Joe Lamb was a professional number cruncher and
manager for a textiles firm makes him more accessible and interesting to some
than if he is cast simply as a musical genius. Also, discovering people who have
not been written about, like Joseph C. Northup or Clarence H. St. John, gives
fresh information for those to peruse.

Overall, I have been contacted by everybody from family members and friends or
former students of these people, as well as others who ran across this research
in some way, and many of them are now ragtime fans that go to events and support
the community through their presence and through CD purchases. The more of them,
particularly the younger ones, that we bring along, the better chance ragtime
has of surviving.

Now if I could only get Ken Burns on board... And believe me, I am actually
working on that as we speak. That we have so many different and interesting
stories about ragtime composers and entertainers from every walk of life is
something that would be appealing to this master storyteller of Americana.

Again, thanks for the notice, but know that I am more the messenger in some
regards than the definitive source. So your thanks are being noted here as a
tribute to those others who have done some of the same work that encouraged me
to take it even a bit further.

Finest, Bill E.

--- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "John" <john.bartlett@...> wrote:
>
> My compliments to "Perfessor" Bill Edwards and the wonderful composer
biographies you have on your website.  This is true treasure of information!
>
> Thanks!
>
> John
>

Hi John.

In all fairness you did point out that some of the pianos may have remained, so
the question naturally would come up as to whether or not they were worth the
effort to acquire. That's how that thread got started.

As for the photos - you can certainly post one or two in our photos section with
no problem. If you are on email, just come to
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/EliteSyncopations/ and log in to post to
the photos section from almost any post-2001 browser.

On ID - Osborne is one of the main authorities on MGM movies to be certain. But
given that they put out 50 or more a year in the 1930s and 1940s, and that does
not include promotional films and shorts, there is a possibility that many were
missed that he has not seen.

I would start be focusing on period movies or musicals from the early 1800s up
through those like Meet Me in St. Louis or In the Good Old Summertime. I may
scan through some after I get to see the picture as I am often looking for sheet
music as well.

There are several good shots of the music store from In the Good Old Summertime
which contain collective sheet music that might be worth upwards of %40,000
nowadays, and back then was likely junk or surplus that MGM was able to obtain
for the store at less than $100. Wonder if any of that is still in storage
today?

Bill Edwards

--- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "John" <john.bartlett@...> wrote:
>
> To All;
>
> Well, my intention was not to try to talk anyone into wanting one of these
pianos that are left, but just to describe to you what I ended up with and to
let you know of the others existence.  Please see my original note below.
>
> I'm very happy with the Geib, as it is from 1830, and has the rudimentary
beginnings of an iron plate that can't weigh more than say 50 lbs, not the heavy
beasts (as I called them) that are left.  I wanted a historic pianoforte, which
is what I now have.  I want to learn how to restore antiques in general, and
pianofortes in particular.  I do not want to restore square grands.  There is a
difference.
>
> I know that some of you must have some reference books on the history of
pianos.  In 1765 (if I remember right), Johannes Zumpe, a piano maker in London,
who emigrated there in 1760, designed the first small square pianoforte for home
use. Until about 1825, there was NO iron plate in these early pianofortes.  Here
in the US, Alpheus Babcock from Philadelphia had an early tubular iron frame,
which was used mostly to keep the case from warping due to the tension on the
strings.  After that, Babcock went to work for Chickering in Boston, and that is
where the first heavy iron plates came in, in the 1830's and 1840's.  Then, they
were in all the squares until they went out of fashion in the 1870's and 1880's.
>
> I just wanted to point out to you that they are there, if you might want a
victorian piece of furniture.
>
> My original question was, and still is, (also see original note below)
>
> -------------
>
> "I'd really like to know how I can identify which movies these pianos were
used in.
>
> I was thinking that I could contact Robert Osborne from Turner Classic Movies
or something and send him some photos, and see if he might be able to tell me
what picture they were used in.  I thought it might add some value to the prop
if I were to put it on E-bay and say "this was used in the movie "- - - -"! 
However, I've not been able to locate a way to send him an inquiry.
>
> And then again, maybe that's not the direction to head.  Maybe I'll just try
to sell the ivory and let it go at that.......
>
> .......Any thoughts about where I should proceed?"
>
> -----------------------
>
> So, again, any thoughts about how I should proceed?  Anybody know how I can
get in touch with Robert Osborne of TCM?  What about selling the ivory keys from
the movie prop I ended up with?
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Again, I know this is not ragtime related, but it is piano related, and
certainly on my mind recently since my Geib just came in.  If any of you would
like to see the type of piano I ended up with, drop me a note and I can send you
a photo of what one should look like, and what I hope mine will look like some
day, probably on the order of 300 to 500 hours into a rebuilding project. 
Again, I ended up with 2 of these, 1) an 1830 William Geib pianoforte, and 2) a
movie prop.
>
> Does this make more sense?
>
> John
>
>
> --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "John" <john.bartlett@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All;
> >
> > I'm not sure if this is a good place to ask this, but I will anyway, and
maybe someone can head me in the right direction if nothing else.
> >
> > The Warner Brothers warehouse in Burbank, CA, a few weeks ago, was going to
throw away (as in take to the landfill) 7 old square pianos, dating anywhere
from about 1830 to the 1870's.  I was able to rescue two of them, a William Geib
(an early maker from New York), made in 1830 or so, and another one that looked
like an early pianoforte, say around 1800.
> >
> > I was able to get them shipped to me in South Carolina by using a truck line
that a friend of mine uses who owns a piano store, and thereby not nearly as
expensive as a moving van or freight line would have been.
> >
> > They came in last week, and as I suspected, from the rough photos they sent,
the Geib needs a lot of work, which is ok, as I was expecting that, and am
looking forward to the restoration experience with an early pianoforte.
> >
> > What I didn't expect was that the 2nd one is a complete fake, a hollywood
prop piano, and the only authentic parts on it are the keys, taken from an old
upright.  They are ivory, so that is a good thing, although there is only about
73 keys, as the first 15 or so were not used so as to duplicate the look of an
early piano.
> >
> > I guess I can sell the keys on E-bay or something and retrieve some of my
expense that way, but I'd really like to know how I can identify which movies
these pianos were used in.
> >
> > I was thinking that I could contact Robert Osborne from Turner Classic
Movies or something and send him some photos, and see if he might be able to
tell me what picture they were used in.  I thought it might add some value to
the prop if I were to put it on E-bay and say "this was used in the movie "- - -
-"!  However, I've not been able to locate a way to send him an inquiry.
> >
> > And then again, maybe that's not the direction to head.  Maybe I'll just try
to sell the ivory and let it go at that.
> >
> > Also, there should be at least 3 of these beasts from the 1860's or 70's
left if anyone is interested.  I think we were able to get the most interesting
ones, including an 1840's Pleyel that went to a restoration shop in Savannah,
GA.
> >
> > Any thoughts about where I should proceed?
> >
> > Thanks in advance, and I know it's not ragtime related, but it is at least
pianos.
> >
> > John
> >
>

Group,

I have been reading a book recently on the life and accomplishments of Theodore
Roosevelt called "The Wilderness Warrior: Theodore Roosevelt and the Crusade for
America" by Douglas Brinkley.

I have to say that it is not only an excellent book but it has also managed to
spark a general interest in Roosevelt for me.

I can remember a classic line in Max Morath's one-man routine years ago where he
said something like, "Teddy Roosevelt *LOVED* Ragtime, Woodrow
Wilson....didn't".

There were also several Roosevelt - Ragtime connections made in Ed Berlin's
classic book on Scott Joplin - even though he never came out and said that
Roosevelt loved it. From one of his accounts, though, it would appear that his
daughter Alice might have.

Does anyone on our group have any more information or thoughts on this? Was
Roosevelt, in fact, a Ragtime fan?

Whatever else might be said, I have come to believe that Ragtime fan or not, he
simply had to be one of our most highly unusual presidents. To bad our suffering
modern world can't find a guy like that today!

Regards,
Fred M. Cain,
Topeka, IN

Group,

I just recently acquired a copy of "The Piano Roll Sampler" from Bob Pinsker in
San Diego.  I have to say that I was most impressed with this and I just wanted
to share that with the group.

For anyone who would like to try and play some classics as played by James P.
Johnson or Cliff Jackson and you don't have a good enough ear to pick them up
yourself (which is the boat that I was in) then this Sampler is just the ticket.

I can honestly say that learning just a few of these pieces is not only
mountains of fun, but I can guarentee that mastering even just a couple of them
will improve your Ragtime piano playing skills overall.

I'd certainly like to recommend it.  Just contact Bob offlist if you're
interested.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain,
Topeka, Indiana

Thanks for the correction, John, but our observations might just bring enough
enlightenment to a Ragtime fan who otherwise might think that a square grand
would be a fine thing to play Ragtime on.  And, your history is dead on
accurate.

Also, if you find a place that you can sell used ivory off old keyboards, would
you let us know?  Many of us old piano tuners have a buttload of it hanging
around...

-Bill Rowland

--- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "John" <john.bartlett@...> wrote:
>
> To All;
>
> Well, my intention was not to try to talk anyone into wanting one of these
pianos that are left, but just to describe to you what I ended up with and to
let you know of the others existence.  Please see my original note below.
>
(snip)
>
> And then again, maybe that's not the direction to head.  Maybe I'll just try
to sell the ivory and let it go at that.......
>

Thanks again, Bill.

I don't have any establishments in my area without having to go a long way, so I
was looking online.  (I ordered my $350 Casio online last year).

If I were to order a new digi online sometime, how can I tell if it has
"weighted keys"?  I was looking over a couple of online music establishments and
I couldn't find that mentioned this.

Are there some models that *ALWAYS* come standard with weighted keys?

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

--- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "jazzpianist" <perfbill@...> wrote:
>
> To enhance the previous thread, a few current recommendations.
>
> For a console-piano type of experience, the Williams keyboards have got decent
reviews as of late, and come with speakers unlike some digi-pianos.
>
>
http://keyboards-midi.musiciansfriend.com/product/Williams-Symphony-Console-Digt\
al-Piano?sku=700313
>
> I am not a Yamaha fan by any stretch for a number of reasons. However, if you
are, try:
>
>
http://keyboards-midi.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-YDPS31-ARIUS-CONSOLE-PI\
ANO?sku=580586
>
> The name Casio used to have poor connotations. However, I have played some of
their more recent entries and they stand up well. I even like some of the better
ones a bit more than the Yamahas.
>
>
http://keyboards-midi.musiciansfriend.com/product/Casio-AP200-Digital-Piano?sku=\
482171
>
> I have played this Korg - which is a speaker-added version of my current
digi-piano. The feel is very good. It also has a much wider variety of sound
level samples with smaller note ranges per sample for much clearer sound.
>
>
http://keyboards-midi.musiciansfriend.com/product/Korg-LP350-Lifestyle-Piano?sku\
=581381
>
> Also, search around and see if you can find any lower prices that those found
in Musicians Friend or Guitar Center. Used items maybe, but not new. Musicians
Friend also has a Scratch and Dent center.
>
> You can try something locally until you see what you like, then tell them the
price you can get it for. Worst case scenario, they balk and you order it
on-line (usually with free shipping). Best case, they either discount or
accessorize it and you take it home that day.
>
> Bill E.
>

Bill,

I think that's a good suggestion.  I am web-only on *ALL* my e-groups.  If I
didn't do that, I would've been hopelessly buried in e-mails a long time ago.  I
belong to one railway group that probably gets over one-hundred messages a day!

By electing web-only, I can go on and just open the titles of the messages that
interest me.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

--- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "jazzpianist" <perfbill@...> wrote:
>
> Might I recommend (and to anybody else with a similar issue), as one of the
administrators, switching to site only. That way you retain membership and can
read and respond at will, but don't receive the emails.
>
> I can switch you now (and anybody else who requests). Just bookmark
>
> http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/EliteSyncopations/
>
> and come here at will. I would not be able to deal with the volume either, and
I know the majority of people here are on site view rather than email.
>
> Hope that is helpful. If you still want to be removed overall, please let me
know at perfbill at hotmail dot com
>
> Bill E.
>
> --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, belle <skibumbuddy@> wrote:
> >
> > Please remove my email (skibumbuddy@) from the group listing, I am receiving
too much mail! I can't handle it. Thanks much!  Lois
> >
>

My compliments to "Perfessor" Bill Edwards and the wonderful composer
biographies you have on your website.  This is true treasure of information!

Thanks!

John

To All;

Well, my intention was not to try to talk anyone into wanting one of these
pianos that are left, but just to describe to you what I ended up with and to
let you know of the others existence.  Please see my original note below.

I'm very happy with the Geib, as it is from 1830, and has the rudimentary
beginnings of an iron plate that can't weigh more than say 50 lbs, not the heavy
beasts (as I called them) that are left.  I wanted a historic pianoforte, which
is what I now have.  I want to learn how to restore antiques in general, and
pianofortes in particular.  I do not want to restore square grands.  There is a
difference.

I know that some of you must have some reference books on the history of pianos.
In 1765 (if I remember right), Johannes Zumpe, a piano maker in London, who
emigrated there in 1760, designed the first small square pianoforte for home
use. Until about 1825, there was NO iron plate in these early pianofortes.  Here
in the US, Alpheus Babcock from Philadelphia had an early tubular iron frame,
which was used mostly to keep the case from warping due to the tension on the
strings.  After that, Babcock went to work for Chickering in Boston, and that is
where the first heavy iron plates came in, in the 1830's and 1840's.  Then, they
were in all the squares until they went out of fashion in the 1870's and 1880's.

I just wanted to point out to you that they are there, if you might want a
victorian piece of furniture.

My original question was, and still is, (also see original note below)

-------------

"I'd really like to know how I can identify which movies these pianos were used
in.

I was thinking that I could contact Robert Osborne from Turner Classic Movies or
something and send him some photos, and see if he might be able to tell me what
picture they were used in.  I thought it might add some value to the prop if I
were to put it on E-bay and say "this was used in the movie "- - - -"!  However,
I've not been able to locate a way to send him an inquiry.

And then again, maybe that's not the direction to head.  Maybe I'll just try to
sell the ivory and let it go at that.......

.......Any thoughts about where I should proceed?"

-----------------------

So, again, any thoughts about how I should proceed?  Anybody know how I can get
in touch with Robert Osborne of TCM?  What about selling the ivory keys from the
movie prop I ended up with?

Any thoughts?

Again, I know this is not ragtime related, but it is piano related, and
certainly on my mind recently since my Geib just came in.  If any of you would
like to see the type of piano I ended up with, drop me a note and I can send you
a photo of what one should look like, and what I hope mine will look like some
day, probably on the order of 300 to 500 hours into a rebuilding project. 
Again, I ended up with 2 of these, 1) an 1830 William Geib pianoforte, and 2) a
movie prop.

Does this make more sense?

John


--- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "John" <john.bartlett@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All;
>
> I'm not sure if this is a good place to ask this, but I will anyway, and maybe
someone can head me in the right direction if nothing else.
>
> The Warner Brothers warehouse in Burbank, CA, a few weeks ago, was going to
throw away (as in take to the landfill) 7 old square pianos, dating anywhere
from about 1830 to the 1870's.  I was able to rescue two of them, a William Geib
(an early maker from New York), made in 1830 or so, and another one that looked
like an early pianoforte, say around 1800.
>
> I was able to get them shipped to me in South Carolina by using a truck line
that a friend of mine uses who owns a piano store, and thereby not nearly as
expensive as a moving van or freight line would have been.
>
> They came in last week, and as I suspected, from the rough photos they sent,
the Geib needs a lot of work, which is ok, as I was expecting that, and am
looking forward to the restoration experience with an early pianoforte.
>
> What I didn't expect was that the 2nd one is a complete fake, a hollywood prop
piano, and the only authentic parts on it are the keys, taken from an old
upright.  They are ivory, so that is a good thing, although there is only about
73 keys, as the first 15 or so were not used so as to duplicate the look of an
early piano.
>
> I guess I can sell the keys on E-bay or something and retrieve some of my
expense that way, but I'd really like to know how I can identify which movies
these pianos were used in.
>
> I was thinking that I could contact Robert Osborne from Turner Classic Movies
or something and send him some photos, and see if he might be able to tell me
what picture they were used in.  I thought it might add some value to the prop
if I were to put it on E-bay and say "this was used in the movie "- - - -"! 
However, I've not been able to locate a way to send him an inquiry.
>
> And then again, maybe that's not the direction to head.  Maybe I'll just try
to sell the ivory and let it go at that.
>
> Also, there should be at least 3 of these beasts from the 1860's or 70's left
if anyone is interested.  I think we were able to get the most interesting ones,
including an 1840's Pleyel that went to a restoration shop in Savannah, GA.
>
> Any thoughts about where I should proceed?
>
> Thanks in advance, and I know it's not ragtime related, but it is at least
pianos.
>
> John
>

Having owned an 1883 Beatty for several years, and worked on that and other
squares, and conferring with other techs: Yikes.

They are temperamental and at times delicate. Parts aren't all that standard.
The string layout with three overlapping layers - more complex than a spinet
(which has about the same sized strings) is not conducive to the best possible
sound. I've never heard a "thundering bass" from one, but I have heard muddy
bass.

One of the main issues is the typewriter keyboard arrangement. One of the first
problems with this goes to keeping a proper alignment with hammers wrapping
around at different angles. Also, by necessity, some of the action is longer and
some shorter, giving an uneven feel. It is hard to play one "hard" as it were,
so fff is iffy and ffff is out. I've never found one that has the escapement of
a true grand (not that they don't exist - I just never found one).

Part of the sound issue has to do with the weirdly shaped soundboard which on
most models has a slot in it for the hammers to get to the strings. The layout
of the board is a squared U on many, and really just a thin rectangle on
others,. Also, because of how much space the action has to take up underneath
the sound board, much of the sound is blocked on the lower and tenor strings,
which have to come out of the bottom, or the back of the lid has to be raised,
very tricky by design given the weight and that it has to be supported by an arm
on each side, usually requiring two people to manipulate.

Aesthetically they are also iffy - my mom always called my Beatty the coffin on
legs. It was also harder to move and manipulate than a 6'6" grand, and we think
it was heavier. Lifting the front off just to play it can be a chore at times
since it weighed a good 35 lbs or so.

Let's put it another way. How many 20th century built square grands are out
there?

Must be a good reason for that. Console pianos, for the most part, have a more
even string pattern and some have longer bass strings. Upright pianos are, for
the most part, infinitely better than any square I've encountered, and have the
same string size as most 6' to 6'6" pianos if properly overstrung. There is also
more sounding board area on an upright or console by far.

OK, that's not a humble opinion by any means, but an experienced one. I
evidently have not run into the same pianos that Bryan has, which would of
course bias me. I also respect his judgment, even if I don't fully find myself
aligned with his thinking.

Actually, if I had the space in my home (I already have five pianos in a
townhome) I would get a square grand because they work great for Christmas
village displays.

Only because it was asked. IMNSHO, of course.

Mr. round grands rock, Bill E.

Might I recommend (and to anybody else with a similar issue), as one of the
administrators, switching to site only. That way you retain membership and can
read and respond at will, but don't receive the emails.

I can switch you now (and anybody else who requests). Just bookmark

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/EliteSyncopations/

and come here at will. I would not be able to deal with the volume either, and I
know the majority of people here are on site view rather than email.

Hope that is helpful. If you still want to be removed overall, please let me
know at perfbill at hotmail dot com

Bill E.

--- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, belle <skibumbuddy@...> wrote:
>
> Please remove my email (skibumbuddy@...) from the group listing, I am
receiving too much mail! I can't handle it. Thanks much!  Lois
>

Well, John, to be brutally honest there is very little value to square grand
pianos.  They were very poorly designed in the first place and I have never,
ever, found one that I considered any more than an interesting piece of
furniture.  And, I have tuned and serviced many of them in my time.  I literally
shudder if someone even utters the phrase "square grand."

If one of these piano has some historical value, it may well belong in a museum.
Otherwise they have more value as dock anchors than anything else, IMHO.

Bill Rowland
Broken Arrow, OK
(Piano technician since 1974)

--- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "John" <john.bartlett@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All;
>
> I'm not sure if this is a good place to ask this, but I will anyway, and maybe
someone can head me in the right direction if nothing else.
>
> The Warner Brothers warehouse in Burbank, CA, a few weeks ago, was going to
throw away (as in take to the landfill) 7 old square pianos, dating anywhere
from about 1830 to the 1870's.  I was able to rescue two of them, a William Geib
(an early maker from New York), made in 1830 or so, and another one that looked
like an early pianoforte, say around 1800.
>
> I was able to get them shipped to me in South Carolina by using a truck line
that a friend of mine uses who owns a piano store, and thereby not nearly as
expensive as a moving van or freight line would have been.
>
> They came in last week, and as I suspected, from the rough photos they sent,
the Geib needs a lot of work, which is ok, as I was expecting that, and am
looking forward to the restoration experience with an early pianoforte.
>
> What I didn't expect was that the 2nd one is a complete fake, a hollywood prop
piano, and the only authentic parts on it are the keys, taken from an old
upright.  They are ivory, so that is a good thing, although there is only about
73 keys, as the first 15 or so were not used so as to duplicate the look of an
early piano.
>
> I guess I can sell the keys on E-bay or something and retrieve some of my
expense that way, but I'd really like to know how I can identify which movies
these pianos were used in.
>
> I was thinking that I could contact Robert Osborne from Turner Classic Movies
or something and send him some photos, and see if he might be able to tell me
what picture they were used in.  I thought it might add some value to the prop
if I were to put it on E-bay and say "this was used in the movie "- - - -"! 
However, I've not been able to locate a way to send him an inquiry.
>
> And then again, maybe that's not the direction to head.  Maybe I'll just try
to sell the ivory and let it go at that.
>
> Also, there should be at least 3 of these beasts from the 1860's or 70's left
if anyone is interested.  I think we were able to get the most interesting ones,
including an 1840's Pleyel that went to a restoration shop in Savannah, GA.
>
> Any thoughts about where I should proceed?
>
> Thanks in advance, and I know it's not ragtime related, but it is at least
pianos.
>
> John
>

You might also enjoy the tale of Klondike Mike Mahoney, who literally carried a
piano up the Chilkoot Pass during the Alaska Gold Rush of 1898 (or so).  You can
read about his exploits at
http://www.archive.org/stream/greatadventurest012839mbp/greatadventurest012839mb\
p_djvu.txt or Google 'klondike mike mahoney piano' for more info.  Fascinating
story!

Bill in Oklahoma again

--- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "jazzpianist" <perfbill@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Rick.
>
> Thought I would also add another neat story I ran across today in MTR that you
would appreciate. I have been doing some study of the various booms in Alaska
and the Yukon from 1895 to the 1920s, trying to find reference to piano players.
Until today, there was only one I could find about a Rag-Time Jim in Nome, one
of the weakest gold rush areas. Then I found this 1919 article which you will
certainly commiserate with:
>