The closer in tune they are the slower the beating. You probably want
in the 10-20 hz range for psychic effects. Google "brain wave" to see
what range we are talking about. Right off the top of my head, I would
guess at about 10 cents difference.

Mike Jones

-----Original Message-----
From: Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Prism7513
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:53 PM
To: Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Ocarinaclub] Huacas - Does anyone know about how far apart
to de-tune chambers?

I recently made my first double harmonic ocarina. But I'm wondering
how far apart the two chambers should be "de-tuned" to create the
effect that Sharon Rowell's huacas have?

Unfortunately, some of the notes are further apart than others, due to
me not tuning them perfectly yet (I'm waiting until it's dry to
further tune as it will just keep changing otherwise), and sometimes
my fingers have a hard time reaching the right holes so they uncover a
hole partially creating more of a distance than I intended. Next time
I'll place the finger holes better for my hands, which aren't very
flexible...

Anyway, is it around 5 cents, 10 cents, ect?  I like the slightly
"off" sound that it makes, but the closer in tune they are, I don't
hear any "beating", so I'm not sure what is too far and sounds "bad",
and what is a good balance.

Deb



------------------------------------

Vive La Ocarina!!!Yahoo! Groups Links

I recently made my first double harmonic ocarina. But I'm wondering how far
apart the two chambers should be "de-tuned" to create the effect that Sharon
Rowell's huacas have?

Unfortunately, some of the notes are further apart than others, due to me not
tuning them perfectly yet (I'm waiting until it's dry to further tune as it will
just keep changing otherwise), and sometimes my fingers have a hard time
reaching the right holes so they uncover a hole partially creating more of a
distance than I intended. Next time I'll place the finger holes better for my
hands, which aren't very flexible...

Anyway, is it around 5 cents, 10 cents, ect?  I like the slightly "off" sound
that it makes, but the closer in tune they are, I don't hear any "beating", so
I'm not sure what is too far and sounds "bad", and what is a good balance.

Deb

Hey!

It was originally through outlook express but when I moved over a province and
changed Sp's I couldn't get it anymore but still have access online.
I get every post as an individual email and at the end of each email it has
this:

.........Anyway, it should make a reply e-mail addressing to
<Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com> and go right in.

Richard, mod

Reply to sender | Reply to group
Messages in this topic (9)
Recent Activity:

     * New Members 4
     * New Files 1

Visit Your Group Start a New Topic
Vive La Ocarina!!! "


So at the bottom it gives me a few links. I used to click reply to...uhhh I
think maybe it changed? Haha I thought it was reply to message! Either way, I'd
click one of the links and it would open a new tab directly to a reply window in
the group forum.
Now both reply to group and sender are dead. I have to click "messages in this
topic"

Eric
--- In Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com, Sandi and Richard Schmidt <info@...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 3:38pm massieko <massiekosflame@...> wrote:
> >
> .......help you too!
> > Eric
> > Also, has anyone else had problems with the links on the emails? I hit
> > reply and it just seems a dead link, I have to go to the entire thread
> > link and choose which one I wanted to reply to.
>
>
> Eric - I checked to see if you were maybe on digest mode, but you get
individual e-mails.  Tell me, are you hitting reply in an on-board program or
using web based e-mail.  Anyway, it should make a reply e-mail addressing to
<Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com> and go right in.
>
> Richard, mod
>

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 3:38pm massieko <massiekosflame@...> wrote:
>
.......help you too!
> Eric
> Also, has anyone else had problems with the links on the emails? I hit
> reply and it just seems a dead link, I have to go to the entire thread
> link and choose which one I wanted to reply to.


Eric - I checked to see if you were maybe on digest mode, but you get individual
e-mails.  Tell me, are you hitting reply in an on-board program or using web
based e-mail.  Anyway, it should make a reply e-mail addressing to
<Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com> and go right in.

Richard, mod

Believe me when I say, this group will most likely open your eyes to a lot of
amazing info, answering many of the questions you ask and even those you don't
but later find you needed to know!
When I joined the group, refered by Arenda, I was already making a couple
ocarinas and was having a bunch of problems that I could likely have figured out
through much trial and error but was helped by those here much more easily and
painlessly! & rather than just finding out what the problem was and maybe a fix
for it, they also helped me understand why! Which is really important to a maker
to better understand the instrument as a whole.
There is still a lot of things discussed here that I don't quite understand.
Sometimes it gets pretty technical but even though I may not entirely
understand, I still learn!
Thanks again Arenda! This group has definitely helped me plenty and I'm sure
will help you too!

Eric

Also, has anyone else had problems with the links on the emails? I hit reply and
it just seems a dead link, I have to go to the entire thread link and choose
which one I wanted to reply to.

--- In Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com, Missy Stevens <missy@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the lead. I'd found his website, very informative, much to take in.
> I'm very interested in the trance inducing aspects of sound, and hope
> to hone my skills at making clay whistles till I actually have some
> control over what sound I get. Still a beginner, but learning whistle
> by whistle ! I think I'll learn a lot with this group.
>

Yes...and why might one have difficulty making a round voicing vs. a square one?
Whenever I attempt it, it just doesn't work hardly at all. How can it make that
much of a difference?

Deb

--- In Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com, Armisis Aieoln <armisis@...> wrote:
>
> Round, Rectangle, Square, or egg shaped voicing window? and why?
>

So why do gemshorn makers still use the wide end for the mouthpiece?

And with the ocarina, why not place the mouthpiece on the narrow end instead of
near the wider end? (tradition?)

Does the vertical placement of the point of the voicing ramp make a difference
in strength or stability of tone? In other words, in the diagram of the recorder
on the link you mentioned, the point of the ramp is parallel to the BOTTOM of
the airway, or the TOP of the fipple block.

But in many instances, and if you use the popsicle method, the point or edge of
the ramp is even with the TOP of the airway.

Then there's K. Dunster's style, where the edge of the airway comes MIDWAY
between the top and bottom of the airway.

Deb

--- In Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com, "strudelhundt" <thomashastay@...> wrote:
>
> I will try and answer your questions and Armisis too.
>
> The object of an "air-reed voicing" is to create soundwaves by means of "The
Bernoulli principle" or more commonly known as a "Siphon Effect"
>
> http://www.flute-a-bec.com/acoustiquegb.html
>
> The airstream travels across the open voicing window and creates a vacume
below the window. When the vacume reaches a critical point, the airstream is
pulled inside and fills the vacume to an opposite pressure. This completes 1
frequency cycle.
>
> If there is a tonehole too close to the voicing, air will rush in and cancel
the initial vacume of this cycle.
>
> If there is too much space (no air restriction) near the voicing window, a
vacume will not form to begin the cycle. (Too much air to move.)
>
> Cone Shape:
> As I explained above, Placing a Ducted Flue voicing at the large end of a cone
will require a large voicing window and a lot of wind from the player. Gemshorns
use this design, but the tone is weaker than it could be and the player may tire
from wind loss.
>
> If the voicing is placed at the small end of the cone, the acoustics will be
greatly improved. Why? Less airmass beneath the voicing window to move/excite. A
"good rule of thumb" is to make the inner diameter at the voicing 2 times the
diameter of the window itself.
>
> Shape:
> Nature HATES angles!!! An air column will naturally take on the most efficient
shape within a vessel. Example: A square tube will only use a cylinder shape
along its length. The outer corners will be "dead airspace", until internal
pressure increases. This will lead to an instrument that fluctuates between
tuned and flat pitch (Nightmare!)
>
> It helps to imagine the air in a vessel as water. Water and Air use the same
physics. Water traveling through a narrow tube will suppress small weak ripples
(high frequencies) but support strong waves (low frequencies. Water traveling
through a large tube will support high frequencies. This may help you consider
where to place toneholes for low or high notes.
>
> As for Spencers "Secret", I will only say that through hard work and
historical research, he has found a way to improve acoustics with a well
placed/shaped baffle. You must do your own groundwork to achieve results. (evil
sneer)
>
> Thomas Hastay.
>
> --- In Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com, "Prism7513" <penley75@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, that too. Is there a way to figure out how close is too close to the
voicing to have a finger hole?
> >
> > Also, with the cone shape...does it matter if the airway is on the side of
the cone, or if it's on the "top" of the cone, the wide part, going straight
into the cone?
> >
> > Deb
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Did you have a question on airspace near the voicing window?
> > >
> >
>

I will try and answer your questions and Armisis too.

The object of an "air-reed voicing" is to create soundwaves by means of "The
Bernoulli principle" or more commonly known as a "Siphon Effect"

http://www.flute-a-bec.com/acoustiquegb.html

The airstream travels across the open voicing window and creates a vacume below
the window. When the vacume reaches a critical point, the airstream is pulled
inside and fills the vacume to an opposite pressure. This completes 1 frequency
cycle.

If there is a tonehole too close to the voicing, air will rush in and cancel the
initial vacume of this cycle.

If there is too much space (no air restriction) near the voicing window, a
vacume will not form to begin the cycle. (Too much air to move.)

Cone Shape:
As I explained above, Placing a Ducted Flue voicing at the large end of a cone
will require a large voicing window and a lot of wind from the player. Gemshorns
use this design, but the tone is weaker than it could be and the player may tire
from wind loss.

If the voicing is placed at the small end of the cone, the acoustics will be
greatly improved. Why? Less airmass beneath the voicing window to move/excite. A
"good rule of thumb" is to make the inner diameter at the voicing 2 times the
diameter of the window itself.

Shape:
Nature HATES angles!!! An air column will naturally take on the most efficient
shape within a vessel. Example: A square tube will only use a cylinder shape
along its length. The outer corners will be "dead airspace", until internal
pressure increases. This will lead to an instrument that fluctuates between
tuned and flat pitch (Nightmare!)

It helps to imagine the air in a vessel as water. Water and Air use the same
physics. Water traveling through a narrow tube will suppress small weak ripples
(high frequencies) but support strong waves (low frequencies. Water traveling
through a large tube will support high frequencies. This may help you consider
where to place toneholes for low or high notes.

As for Spencers "Secret", I will only say that through hard work and historical
research, he has found a way to improve acoustics with a well placed/shaped
baffle. You must do your own groundwork to achieve results. (evil sneer)

Thomas Hastay.

--- In Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com, "Prism7513" <penley75@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, that too. Is there a way to figure out how close is too close to the
voicing to have a finger hole?
>
> Also, with the cone shape...does it matter if the airway is on the side of the
cone, or if it's on the "top" of the cone, the wide part, going straight into
the cone?
>
> Deb
>
>
> >
> > Did you have a question on airspace near the voicing window?
> >
>

Thanks for the lead. I'd found his website, very informative, much to take in.
I'm very interested in the trance inducing aspects of sound, and hope
to hone my skills at making clay whistles till I actually have some
control over what sound I get. Still a beginner, but learning whistle
by whistle ! I think I'll learn a lot with this group.

Yes, that too. Is there a way to figure out how close is too close to the
voicing to have a finger hole?

Also, with the cone shape...does it matter if the airway is on the side of the
cone, or if it's on the "top" of the cone, the wide part, going straight into
the cone?

Deb


>
> Did you have a question on airspace near the voicing window?
>

Shape matters a great deal!

As the vessel shape changes from a perfect sphere into a narrow "carrot" shape,
the dominant harmonic/first overblown harmonic reduces from 9+ octaves above the
fundamental down to almost a single octave jump. ("Horns Strings and Harmony" by
Arthur H. Benade).

The fundamental scale can be enhanced by shape. Low notes/frequencies have more
acoustic energy and are enhanced by narrow restricted shapes. High frequencies
need less internal pressure to retain their energy. This is why the low notes on
a Sweet Potato are located in the narrow end of the vessel and the high notes
are located in the wider top of the vessel.

Did you have a question on airspace near the voicing window?

T.Hastay

--- In Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com, "Prism7513" <penley75@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, I am getting closer at getting my ocarinas to sound good even with a
larger body and extended range, but no where's near good, yet.
>
> I was wondering how much the shape plays into the sound quality? I think I've
seen here before that scientifically it shouldn't matter. But yet some people
think that narrowing the end where higher notes will be helps, or that corners
(such as squares) don't work, etc.
>
> But wooden inline ocarinas have a very square shape as opposed to the bulbous
sweet potato ocarinas out there. Though there are very narrow ocarinas, as well.
>
> And then there's Spencer's mysterious inner chamber desin which helps his high
notes.
>
> So doe the shape matter? If so, what can I do to improve the sound quality?
What should I avoid?
>
> Deb
>

Hi Missy and welcome to Ocarinaclub.

You can find more info on peruvian whistling pots at Daniel Statnekov's site
here...

http://www.peruvianwhistles.com/

(Click on "Writings")

Interesting note: One of the articles tells about whistling pots that can
manipulate Alpha Brainwaves in the 16hz range. It is beleived that Peruvian
Shamans used these flutes to enter a "trance state" by changing their Alpha wave
patterns.

Thomas Hastay.

--- In Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com, Missy Stevens <missy@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I'm an artist who started working with clay a few years ago and
> consider myself a beginner with that material. Recently I had a chance
> to hear/experience a Peruvian whistling vessel, with two connected
> chambers. Water goes into one chamber and when it flows into the
> second it sounds the whistle. It was so beautiful I came home and
> started learning about whistles. I'm making simple whistles, with one
> or several tones, but still there's so much I don't understand about
> it. And I have my heart set on making whistling vessels like the one I
> heard. I'd appreciate any advice from more experienced makers.
> Especially helpful would be images of the structure inside the
> whistles
>
> Thanks !
>

Ciao.
Which are the requisite for admission?
Which is the cost?
Also... I have interest for the plan of study for the ocarina.
Thing intends for other instruments in terracotta?
For example Xun, Hun, English Ocarina, Double and Triple ocarinas ,Wudus and the
others?
Sorry but  I have not found these information.
Thanks
Paolo

If you are interested in the university ocarina course in Italy,The Conservatory
of music of Ferrara have published the official study program.

Go to this link for see and download it (in italian) :
http://conservatorioferrara.it/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=280&Ite\
mid=24

Bye !!


Claudio Cedroni
Gruppo Ocarinistico Budriese - Budrio Italy
Web site: http://www.ocarina.it/musicians/gruppo.htm
YouTube Home page: http://www.youtube.com/user/ocarinagroup

Thanks for the info Deb. The article looks great. The other link wasn't active.
Have you made this kind of vessel/whistle ? And by the way, thanks for
the encouraging words !

Missy

I tried several methods but never got it to work. My efforts were worse than
without the baffle. There may be some people who have gotten the magic to work
but I was not one. It does seem to make sences that the sound hole be locatded
in a smaller section of the vessel to enable the pressure waves to be generated
easier before the propagate to the rest of the vessel. Personally, I have not
tried to do anything special in this respect. My ocarinas are generally about 1
inch I.D. and about 3-5 inches long. The biggest hurdle is getting the sound
hole size to be properly matched to the internal volume of the ocarina and then
the finger holes aren't too small or too large to cause sound problems and the
tone is well balanced throughout the range of notes.

I think sharp corners should be rounded if possible but I doubt that many people
have ears that would detect any differences here, but it is possible that the
tone would sound better. If you have multiple chambers connected by rather small
holes (relative to the size of the vessel) then you are likely to get harmonics
from each chamber that may or may not sound good together, depending on the
chamber sizes relative to each other. I think that is the idea behind the
baffle, to essentially create 2 chambers so that the inital chamber can easily
create the resonance and the second change is kick-started by the first chamber.

Mike Jones



----- Original Message ----
From: Prism7513 <penley75@...>
To: Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 12:19:03 AM
Subject: [Ocarinaclub] Did anyone ever successfully get a baffle to work?

In thinking about shape, I remembered the baffle question that came up a few
years back, and there was the picture of the broken xun with the baffle built
in...

Reading the old thread (darn the search for not working! I had to look at when
the photo was posted, and guess at numbers until I could find it...) I noticed
Thomas mentioned that a good baffle could help make the high notes better in
smaller ocarinas.

As I always have trouble with my high notes, and so far I've only gotten the
smaller ocs to work, this would be GREAT if it could help me.

So has anyone tried since the old discussion? What were the results?

I think I'm going to try this...

And for that matter, it's always said that bumps and ripples and such inside the
ocarina affect things as well. What if instead of just a wall for the baffle,
you made it a ramp? What would that do, if anything?

Oh, and I should mention that I played around with the idea of the 6 hole
21-note range ocarina, and it's just not worth it to me at this point. I think
John Taylor made a very good thing, and by adding 5 holes (two sub and 3
regular) I have the same range, so I'll just stick with that for now...

Deb



------------------------------------

Vive La Ocarina!!!Yahoo! Groups Links

In thinking about shape, I remembered the baffle question that came up a few
years back, and there was the picture of the broken xun with the baffle built
in...

Reading the old thread (darn the search for not working! I had to look at when
the photo was posted, and guess at numbers until I could find it...) I noticed
Thomas mentioned that a good baffle could help make the high notes better in
smaller ocarinas.

As I always have trouble with my high notes, and so far I've only gotten the
smaller ocs to work, this would be GREAT if it could help me.

So has anyone tried since the old discussion? What were the results?

I think I'm going to try this...

And for that matter, it's always said that bumps and ripples and such inside the
ocarina affect things as well. What if instead of just a wall for the baffle,
you made it a ramp? What would that do, if anything?

Oh, and I should mention that I played around with the idea of the 6 hole
21-note range ocarina, and it's just not worth it to me at this point. I think
John Taylor made a very good thing, and by adding 5 holes (two sub and 3
regular) I have the same range, so I'll just stick with that for now...

Deb

Okay, I am getting closer at getting my ocarinas to sound good even with a
larger body and extended range, but no where's near good, yet.

I was wondering how much the shape plays into the sound quality? I think I've
seen here before that scientifically it shouldn't matter. But yet some people
think that narrowing the end where higher notes will be helps, or that corners
(such as squares) don't work, etc.

But wooden inline ocarinas have a very square shape as opposed to the bulbous
sweet potato ocarinas out there. Though there are very narrow ocarinas, as well.

And then there's Spencer's mysterious inner chamber desin which helps his high
notes.

So doe the shape matter? If so, what can I do to improve the sound quality? What
should I avoid?

Deb

Welcome! The fact that you get several tones is already a great sign :) The
hardest part (for me, anyway!) is the voicing, or ramp area, of the whistle or
ocarina. The more notes I want, the harder it gets :)

There's a great description of the water whistle here:

http://home.eckerd.edu/~ransombc/enigmaofwhistlingwaterjars.htm

I hope that helps! There's also a pic of a water whistle with one chamber in the
files section:

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IMn4StLTpEG3IDzEhHTW6ciM_XNBEUZieVb9C-l9g8VtuGWM5nr\
XrLOMYg9bJv9CIisGJRs5O6s0Hri8b01Kl8ZUNeUS1A/water_whistle.jpg

Deb

--- In Ocarinaclub@yahoogroups.com, Missy Stevens <missy@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I'm an artist who started working with clay a few years ago and
> consider myself a beginner with that material. Recently I had a chance
> to hear/experience a Peruvian whistling vessel, with two connected
> chambers. Water goes into one chamber and when it flows into the
> second it sounds the whistle. It was so beautiful I came home and
> started learning about whistles. I'm making simple whistles, with one
> or several tones, but still there's so much I don't understand about
> it. And I have my heart set on making whistling vessels like the one I
> heard. I'd appreciate any advice from more experienced makers.
> Especially helpful would be images of the structure inside the
> whistles
>
> Thanks !
>

Hi,
I'm an artist who started working with clay a few years ago and
consider myself a beginner with that material. Recently I had a chance
to hear/experience a Peruvian whistling vessel, with two connected
chambers. Water goes into one chamber and when it flows into the
second it sounds the whistle. It was so beautiful I came home and
started learning about whistles. I'm making simple whistles, with one
or several tones, but still there's so much I don't understand about
it. And I have my heart set on making whistling vessels like the one I
heard. I'd appreciate any advice from more experienced makers.
Especially helpful would be images of the structure inside the
whistles

Thanks !

Bravo per il Ministero dell'Istruzione, dell'UniversitĂ  e della Ricerca dello
Stato italiano! Che grande onore per la nostra umile strumento poco. Mi rende
molto orgoglioso e felice!

La ringrazio molto per questa informazione, Claudio.

Best,

Richard



On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 1:04pm gobitalia <gobitalia@...> wrote:
> To all ocarina palyers.
> The Ministry of Education, University and Research of the Italian State
> (MIUR) has finally approved the establishment of the two years of
> university level II in "Wind instruments in terracotta (ocarina) .
> The years will be activated at the Conservatorio di Musica G. Frescobaldi
> of Ferrara and leave guidelines in December 2009.
> It great meet and exceed that given this fact: we are the first country in
> the world that will have a university course Ocarina!
> I invite any of you who are interested in achieving this degree (in
> possession of qualifications required of course) to submit the request to
> admission to the course (using the form attached into the "Links") that
> can be sent to the Conservatory of Ferrara in two ways:
> 1. e-mail address: @ segreteria.didattica conservatorioferrara.it
> 2. fax to +39 0532 247521
> I believe that the establishment of this university course is an historic
> achievement for the our instrument, which finally gets a musical dignity
> "institutional" like any other "classics".
> A big thanks goes to Prof. Emiliano Bernagozzi, ocarina composer and
> member of the Gruppo Ocarinistico Budriese, who has worked hard all these
> years to achieve this historic and prestigious result is thanks to him
> that the ocarina finally enters the conservatory!
> Disclosed the news to your friends ocarina Italians and foreigners.
> Bye.
> Claudio Cedroni President of Gruppo Ocarinistico Budriese
> Via Golinelli, 14 40054 Budrio BO - Italy e-mail: gobitalia@... Web
> site: http://www.ocarina.it/musicians/gruppo.htm YouTube Home page:
> http://www.youtube.com/user/ocarinagroup
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Vive La Ocarina!!!Yahoo! Groups Links
> Ocarinaclub-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>