Howard.
Many thanks again for your input, both profound and entertaining, on this
and other matter.
But the previous Hooper thread involved only the 'Five Musical Blackbirds'
and nothing else is filed in the group archive.
The Hooper article is in Record Research 77 and it would be nice to know if
he mentions the Rosas with the supposed Big Charlie. However, my guess
would be that this path has already been beaten.
Only when you get a moment for I think even you may have concerns away from
the turntable today. Me too, but Wimbledon not Wembley -- or wherever it
is.
All the best
Dave
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I consulted the Louis Hooper issue somne months ago on abother query, and
then put it somewhere "safe", and have just found it again.
About Rosa, Louis said:
"Rosa was a jolly, pleasant artist to work with. I believe my first
recording with her was for Vocalion. I remember going with her to the
Edison studios . . . . my first visit there. She was ready for a laugh
anytime."
Only two Rosa Henderson's are noted, as follows:
"15044: Get It Fixed Stewart, Hooper, Snowden
Poplar Bluff Blues Charlie Green, Hooper
15011: 12th Street Blues Stewart, Hooper, Snowden
Low Down Daddy Fuller, Hooper"
The context of the above is that Hooper identified himself on each of the 4
tracks, and Green was mentioned only in respect of "Get It Fixed",
apparently in place of Jake Frazier.
The personnel for the Kansas City Five is also given as including Charlie
Green, as follows:
"14356: Get Yourself A Monkey Man (105643) - Miley, Charlie Green, Fuller,
Hooper, Snowden
14357: Louisville Blues (105644) - as above"
Morris is aurally identified for the following:
Rosa Henderson - Per 12100 (both sides)
Five Musical Blackbirds - masters 106633-5
Kitty Brown - masters 5655-6
Louella Jones - masters 5695-6
(The 1982 B&GR gave Miley as cornetist for Louella Jones' session.)
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 4:57 PM
Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Louis Hooper (was Chas. Thomas)
> Howard.
>
> Many thanks again for your input, both profound and entertaining, on this
> and other matter.
>
> But the previous Hooper thread involved only the 'Five Musical Blackbirds'
> and nothing else is filed in the group archive.
>
> The Hooper article is in Record Research 77 and it would be nice to know
> if
> he mentions the Rosas with the supposed Big Charlie. However, my guess
> would be that this path has already been beaten.
>
> Only when you get a moment for I think even you may have concerns away
> from
> the turntable today. Me too, but Wimbledon not Wembley -- or wherever it
> is.
>
> All the best
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
on 2/7/06 9:22, Prof_Hi_Jinx at prof_hi_jinx@... wrote:
> Louella Jones - masters 5695-6
>
> (The 1982 B&GR gave Miley as cornetist for Louella Jones' session.)
and still does. This may be an oversight or it may be a judgment!
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
Folks, I just heard a record playing on the wondeful internet station
Radio Dismuke by Irving Mills and his Hotsy Totsy Gang called "since
you went away". The cornet solo of 32 bars was very "Bix" and I was
wondering if anyone can shed light onto whether or not it was actually
Bix playing it or in fact a very good imitator of his style?
Best wishes,
Sean Moyses
www.SeanMoyses.com
That was Jimmy McPartland, who was one of the many Bix admirers in the
1920s. Jimmy memorized all of Bix's solos in his records with the
Wolverines. When Bix left the Wolverines in Oct 1924 and was replaced
by Jimmy, he fitted right in. When Jimmy went to New York to join the
Wolverines, he roomed with Bix. Jimmy kept his friendship with Bix to
the end of Bix's short life.
Albert
--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Sean Moyses" <moyses@...> wrote:
>
> Folks, I just heard a record playing on the wondeful internet station
> Radio Dismuke by Irving Mills and his Hotsy Totsy Gang called "since
> you went away". The cornet solo of 32 bars was very "Bix" and I was
> wondering if anyone can shed light onto whether or not it was actually
> Bix playing it or in fact a very good imitator of his style?
> Best wishes,
> Sean Moyses
> www.SeanMoyses.com
>
I've been contemplating different aspects of various CD reissue labels
(somehow I didn't really like my last post or two on this topic)... I
think a subtle distinction can be made between "fidelity" and "sound
quality" (the character of the sound), though both are quite
subjective. It does seem that, sometimes even more than the
restoration work, the final mastering can give the sound its "character."
Retrieval stands out for the best CD reissues of some essential
material, like Oliver's complete 1923-24 sides and Morton's complete
early solos. On their Keppard and Piron sets, John R.T. is credited
with Audio Restoration, while Wil Hesen receives credit for Digital
Mastering (which is superior on the Piron, I feel).
As for Clarence Williams CDs, while I appreciate Classics'
completeness, the Frog CDs are ideal for quality, fidelity, and their
first-time issues of rare and valuable Williams material. I
especially enjoy Volume 2 of the QRS Recordings, which has previously
unissued takes by Sara Martin, Williams and His Orchestra (both with
Oliver), Laura Bryant, and the Barrel House Five. The fact of
unissued Oliver sides appearing at such a late date gives me a kind of
indefinable hope for human endeavor (likewise with "Olga" on Jazz
Oracle's 'A Gift From the President').
I was just thinking about the intro to "Jail House Blues" / Bessie
Smith , which is very similar to Cow Cow Davenport licks, and then
theres a very short but typical boogie-woogie walking bass , however,
soon the song turns into something else. Being recorded at September
1923, which is quite early for this, well, it surprised me , to put it
better, I was wondering wether there are other signs for boogie
woogie elements in other Irvin Jones' works.
Thanks in advance,
Tommersl
on 5/7/06 23:15, tommersl at tommersl@... wrote:
> I was just thinking about the intro to "Jail House Blues" / Bessie
> Smith , which is very similar to Cow Cow Davenport licks, and then
> theres a very short but typical boogie-woogie walking bass , however,
> soon the song turns into something else. Being recorded at September
> 1923, which is quite early for this, well, it surprised me , to put it
> better, I was wondering wether there are other signs for boogie
> woogie elements in other Irvin Jones' works.
I can't answer that but I can confirm that irving Johns is named on
Columbia's file cards for this session so his presence is as certain as
anything human can ever be!
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
Found on eBay (all spelling sic):
GREAT E+ copy of Perfeect 14356 by KANSAS CITY FIVE ( alledged mystery
trumpeter BIG CHARLIE JOHNSON on these sides) GET YOUR SELF A MONKEY MAN/Max
Terr Orch N.I. hot stuff from 1924.
Big Charlie Johnson, eh. Don't these legends take on a life of their own?
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
Hi Tommers
I do not have time to read the whole article just now, but I won't fail to
do it, thoroughly and with a magnifying glass. I cannot get why the way
pointless, unchecked or false information gets reproduced year after year -
and even more now that anyone can build a website out of randomly grabbed
"information" - should bear Bix' name rather that anyone else's... still,
unless I missed some important information which Albert and the other
specialists will empress to provide, I have a vague feeling of a "false
start" in the article itself, and I would be very glad to see the *birth*
certificate in which the second name "Bix" is supposed to be written in
three plain letters. Methinks the writer has been another victim the same
funny tendency to use some vague hearsay as an evidence of what he wants to
prove, but I wouldn't go as far as calling that "Shawism" ;-)
Patrice
----- Original Message -----
From: "tommersl" <tommersl@...>
To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 1:54 AM
Subject: [RedHotJazz] Bixing
Check out the following article about the legendary Bix Beiderbecke
http://www.mainspringpress.com/bixing.html
If people have already had this, my apologies. I posted it a couple of days
ago and it hasn't come back to me.
Found on eBay (all spelling sic):
GREAT E+ copy of Perfeect 14356 by KANSAS CITY FIVE ( alledged mystery
trumpeter BIG CHARLIE JOHNSON on these sides) GET YOUR SELF A MONKEY MAN/Max
Terr Orch N.I. hot stuff from 1924.
Big Charlie Johnson, eh. Don't these legends take on a life of their own?
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
Many of the examples Shaw gives seem suspiciously prone to bad
phrasing (exaggerated for comic purposes?). For example, absolutes
("taught him everything he knew," "the only time it was fun at all,"
"brown paper bag he always used") almost invariably mean that a
statement is incorrect (please note "almost" countering the absolute
"invariably"), yet their use is not unique to uninformed
romanticizing; lots of "well-informed" writers use them as well.
Some qualities of what Shaw calls "Bixing" seem to echo poetic
reminiscences by Bix's friends, like those of Hoagy Carmichael and
Eddie Condon. Really, the "verifiable facts" about people after they
die can seem quite mundane or statistical--what's left are primary
documents (sometimes inaccurate) and the many, many subjective
viewpoints of people who actualy had some contact with the individual
(I tend to prefer the "tall tales" told by those who knew Bix to
studied debunkings written by those who didn't).
Roll 'Citizen Kane'...
on 8/7/06 11:29, spacelights at spacelights@... wrote:
> Really, the "verifiable facts" about people after they
> die can seem quite mundane or statistical--what's left are primary
> documents (sometimes inaccurate) and the many, many subjective
> viewpoints of people who actualy had some contact with the individual
> (I tend to prefer the "tall tales" told by those who knew Bix to
> studied debunkings written by those who didn't).
Is not the point here that we are dealing with two different kinds of
"truth", both of which have their own validity?
I know this idea is anathema to some, but the way in which Bix, or anyone
else, was perceived by contemporaries, especially those who looked up to
him, is part of the facts of his life, and tall tales are the proof of it.
What we really have to watch out for and suppress are posthumous myths,
romancing by early enthusiasts, often Europeans who had no idea whatever
what was really going on outside recording studios. These myths can only
ultimately demean the memory of those about whom they are told.
The question of tall tales told by contemporaries whose real purpose is to
aggrandize the speaker at the expense of the person about whom the tale is
told is perhaps a third case. Also a kind of truth but a different kind. A
story about Bix in Benny Goodman's The Kingdom of Swing always comes to mind
in this context and with it Benny Green's meticulous (if pointless) line by
line destruction of it in The Reluctant Art. Now that kind of debunking I
can only applaud!
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Patrice Champarou"
<patrice.champarou@...> wrote:
Methinks the writer has been another victim the same
> funny tendency to use some vague hearsay as an evidence of what he
wants to
> prove, but I wouldn't go as far as calling that "Shawism" ;-)
>
> Patrice
>
Patrice, I was running into this article as was was compiling my own
article about 4 steps that any musician has to face in his career,
wether he choose to skip one or not it still be as same.
While I was gathering information from all available sources about
guys like Louis Armstrong, Kid Ory, Hot Lips Page, Jelly Roll Morton,
Charlie Parker, Coltrane, and several others I was questioning about
Bix and it seems like is written in this article that we don't know
why Bix made the musical decision he made. What I was wondering is
wether Bix died while he was in his 3rd step or the 2nd step.
The steps are : 1. schooling, 2. peak, 3. lighter, 4. folk.
The first is musician that learns and makes his homework from
influences. The 2nd is when musician suddenly gets everything
together and is in his peak. The 3rd is when a musician realize that
he can't keep up with the intense he used to so he picks
something "lighter" that he can champion because it's not as
difficult as what he did before and it still gets him crowds. The 4th
is when a musician is getting requests to play the music he did in
the past rather than go to another direction.
Any comments about Bix are welcomed.
Tommersl
>What I was wondering is
> wether Bix died while he was in his 3rd step or the 2nd step.
There again, it's my brain which doesn't have time to fully understand your
meaning, but although I am not used to advertise anything on mailing-lists I
think I cannot do anything but recommend Jean-Pierre Lion's Bix Biography,
and suggest listening again to all af Bix' numbers while reading his
comments, which we all did. Just be warned it is a French writer writing
;-), trying to get deep inside the man's psychology and filling in whatever
blanks he came up with so as to make a full living portrait - no criticism
intended, Jean-Pierre, since I know you are reading our posts from time to
time, and once again many thanks for sending me your book which has been,
indeed, "proudly standing on my shelves" ever since.
Patrice
Very insightful comments about "bixing" have been presented in this
thread. An important distinction given by Howard is "bixing" as done
by contemporaries -musicians and friends who knew Bix- and "bixing"
done by historians, critics, etc. who never saw or met Bix. Since the
word was invented by Malcolm, we should really look at his definition,
namely,
"So, what's bixing? It's a common habit in jazz history both written
and oral, of passing off rumor and opinion as fact. It's named for Bix
Beiderbecke because people have probably used more smoke and mirrors
to augment and glorify his particular legend than anyone else's. The
harm that results is usually minimal and often risible, but bixing
creates a folklore tradition that newcomers to our music hear and
believe at the expense of truth.
Bixing is a combination of ignorance, mental laziness and reckless
enthusiasm, sometimes combined with an agenda, political or personal.
It's fun to search out, it's common enough and it can give you a laugh
on a rainy day."
The first statement in the above passage, "passing off rumor and
opinion as fact.", is quite precise. But then, Malcolm gives, as
examples of "bixing," factual errors that have nothing to do with
opinions or rumor. So Bixing seems to be a poorly defined term, almost
anything would be "bixing" –factual errors, opinions presented as
facts, exaggerations, etc. etc
"Bixing," as defined by Malcolm, occurs not only in jazz history but
in several other fields of human endeavor. If we add to "rumor and
opinion" the word "interpretation" then "Bixing" occurs in science,
politics, just about everywhere. I totally disagree with Malcolm that
"The harm that results is usually minimum." Opinion/interpretation and
fact should be distinguished as totally different species. A fact is
obtained by demonstrable observation, it is a description of reality.
An opinion is a belief with some substantiation, but it is not an
objective statement of reality. When opinion and interpretation are
presented as facts, then we have a serious breach of proper
scholarship. In my opinion, Malcolm trivializes his definition of
"Bixing" by stating, "it's common enough and it can give you a laugh
on a rainy day." There is nothing risible about an
opinion/interpretation presented as fact: it provides a false image of
reality. I agree that sometimes "bixing" can be the result of
"ignorance and mental laziness" and is occasionally combined with "a
political or personal agenda." All of these are unacceptable in sound
historical research. [I will admit that on occasion, examples of
"bixing" are rather amusing.]
I would rather not use the word "bixing," but I must admit that it has
a nice ring to it. However, I prefer to use words of phrases that have
an accepted meaning. For example,
Factual Errors: honest and fabrications
Interpretations/opinions presented as facts
Exaggerations
Self-aggrandizing recollections
Etc. etc.
One example. The question of the middle name of Leon Beiderbecke is
raised in Malcolm's article.
A "Certificate of Birth" is given in p.17 of "Bix: The Leon
Beiderbecke Story" by Evans and Evans. The certificate gives the full
name as Leon Bix Beiderbecke. Burnie, Bix's brother, maintained that
Bix was Leon's middle name, not Bismark. We have here an example of
PROBABLY an honest error. In Malcolm's nomenclature, this would be an
example of `bixing."
I believe Evans published Bix's "Certificate of Birth" in good faith.
It is possible that Evans had no other documentation available to him
at the time he wrote his book. However, there is strong evidence (see
below) that supports that Leon's middle name was Bismark. If indeed,
the middle name was Bismark, and Evans had no other evidence than that
provided in his book, he made an honest error.
For those interested, here are links to the evidence about Bix's
middle name.
http://tinyurl.com/zcmqbhttp://bixbeiderbecke.com/bismark/bixorbismark.html
Tom Pletcher has written a multi-part essay in which he presents his
views of several "myths" about Bix. In Malcolm's broader definition, I
think the myths are examples of "bixing."
http://bixbeiderbecke.com/pletcher.html
In my OPINION, most of "Remembering Bix" by Ralph Berton consists of
endless examples of "bixing" in its broader meaning.
Albert
on 8/7/06 23:18, Albert Haim at alberthaim@... wrote:
> In my OPINION, most of "Remembering Bix" by Ralph Berton consists of
> endless examples of "bixing" in its broader meaning.
On the other hand, I have long regarded it as the best "jazz novel" ever
written! As an account of how things were then, as seen looking backwards by
a middle-aged romantic, it takes some beating. Don't take this remark any
more seriously than any of the so-called facts in the book, a few of which
are no doubt actually true. If only we could tell which ones they were.
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
"On the other hand, I have long regarded it [Remembering Bix] as the
best "jazz novel" ever written!"
In my opinion it [Remembering Bix] is the most pretentious piece of
fiction I have ever read. In addition, Berton fabricates events and
misleads the reader at every turn. [If anyone needs documentation on
my detailed analyses of Berton's book, all they need to do is go to my
Bix forum, and search under "Remembering Bix." He/she will find miles
of my endless verbiage in dozens and dozens of posts.]
Since you mentioned Benny Green in one of your previous posts, you
might be interested in the following review of "Remembering Bix" by
Benny Green.
From the Spectator (London), volume 233, p. 574, Nov 2, 1974. Benny
Green reviews Man and Legend and Remembering Bix simultaneously.
"As to Remembering Bix by Ralph Berton, this is one of those
pseudo-tough guy hair-on-chest American outbursts of senile acne with
which we are all familiar. Mr Berton, who had a brief friendship with
Bix through his drumming brother Vic Berton, seems to think anybody
cares about his teenage sexual prowess or his reactions to Bix's
music. I am not even seduced by the fact that Mr Berton has had the
eminent good sense to quote me often and at length."
Albert
on 9/7/06 14:09, Albert Haim at alberthaim@... wrote:
> "On the other hand, I have long regarded it [Remembering Bix] as the
> best "jazz novel" ever written!"
>
> In my opinion it [Remembering Bix] is the most pretentious piece of
> fiction I have ever read.
Well I did warn you not to take the statement seriously!! (The competition
in jazz novels is not very overwhelming.)
"Outburst of senile acne" seems gloriously apposite. It is certainly a
production of second adolescence, a phenomenon which does have musical
consequences.
Having watched a number of previously quite sensible elderly gentlemen who
had spent a lifetime as jazz purists suddenly develop a passion for Annette
Hanshaw, I live in fear of eventually finding myself liking Joan Baez, whose
music I spent my own adolescence avoiding like the plague.
Don't take this too seriously either. I have no interest in discussing the
merits of either of the two ladies, let alone their relative merits. Ms.
Hanshaw is undeniably charming and for all I know so is Ms. Baez.
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Rye" <howard@...
> I live in fear of eventually finding myself liking Joan Baez, whose
> music I spent my own adolescence avoiding like the plague.
Hum! Having myself just taken off my helmet an coat of mail after
indicentally telling a gang of 'bluesfans' that I had always been unable
to find any interest in Mr Hendrix' music, I wonder if outbursts of all
kinds are not a seasonal phenomenon ;-)
P.
Howard,
To read everything you DID NOT WANT to know about Annette, go to
http://www.dgarrick.com/annettehanshaw/annettehanshaw.php
I DO NOT recommend two videos available in that site:
1. Annette herself singing "We Just Couldn't Say Goodbye."
2. A charming cartoon with an Annette soundtrack, "Sita Sings the
Blues," "Nina Pauly's animated feature based on Sita's adventures in
the ancient Indian epic the Ramayana."
Did the elderly gentlemen also suddenly become tennis fans and develop
a passion for Maria Sharapova? :-)
Albert
PS I freely admit I am elderly (but not a gentleman), and that Annette
is my favorite female vocalist from the 1920s.
--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
>
> on 9/7/06 14:09, Albert Haim at alberthaim@... wrote:
>
> > "On the other hand, I have long regarded it [Remembering Bix] as the
> > best "jazz novel" ever written!"
> >
> > In my opinion it [Remembering Bix] is the most pretentious piece of
> > fiction I have ever read.
>
> Well I did warn you not to take the statement seriously!! (The
competition
> in jazz novels is not very overwhelming.)
>
> "Outburst of senile acne" seems gloriously apposite. It is certainly a
> production of second adolescence, a phenomenon which does have musical
> consequences.
>
> Having watched a number of previously quite sensible elderly
gentlemen who
> had spent a lifetime as jazz purists suddenly develop a passion for
Annette
> Hanshaw, I live in fear of eventually finding myself liking Joan
Baez, whose
> music I spent my own adolescence avoiding like the plague.
>
> Don't take this too seriously either. I have no interest in
discussing the
> merits of either of the two ladies, let alone their relative merits. Ms.
> Hanshaw is undeniably charming and for all I know so is Ms. Baez.
>
> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
> howard@...
> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
>
The Benny Green obituary
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/118354.stm
reads, in part,
"Fellow jazz musician and friend John Dankworth, said Green was a
"wonderful, very warm and thoughtful man"."
Albert
--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "spacelights" <spacelights@...> wrote:
>
> I haven't read Berton's book, but Green always struck me as a petty,
> mean-spirited egomaniac... A shame, because he's a highly skilled and
> perceptive writer.
>
Hi Albert--
I did not ever meet Green (at least, not that I'm aware of), so my
impression was based purely on his writing persona. I don't wish to
demean him personally. Words are powerful things, and the quote you
posted from his review just seemed to confirm my impression...
Interestingly, these divergent views of him in retrospect seem very
relevant to the "Bixing" discussion.
Best regards,
John
--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:
>
> The Benny Green obituary
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/118354.stm
>
> reads, in part,
>
> "Fellow jazz musician and friend John Dankworth, said Green was a
> "wonderful, very warm and thoughtful man"."
>
> Albert
>
>
> --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "spacelights" <spacelights@> wrote:
> >
> > I haven't read Berton's book, but Green always struck me as a petty,
> > mean-spirited egomaniac... A shame, because he's a highly skilled and
> > perceptive writer.
> >
>
Green was a very good writer on what he liked, for example, his Pres is
still about the best there is. But he had no ears, and no humility, for what
he did not like nor understand.
His own early 'autobiographical' musical reminiscences and novels can be
criticised with the same, rather poor, acne image he used for Berton, but
without the excuse of senility.
'Remembering Bix' must indeed be read as fiction but offering --as Howard so
rightly observes --another 'truth' about Bix and his milieu beyond facts.
I also spent my acned era trying to escape Baez & Dylan, worse even than the
Beatles, because of the pretensions.
Tall stories Howard ? I see in Lord that the banjoist Sam Tall now has a
full 4 sessions from 1923-26 -- I forget which now. This neglected and
obscure musician was entirely a whimsical fabrication by the editor of Jazz
Journal , Sinclair Traill, in order to prove a point --which it still does.
The name was pounced on by the ace train spotter and is now a 'Fact' .
Oh, I see that Shaw, with whose article I was singularly unimpressed
although I resist --with difficulty--bringing to it a dermatological
diagnosis, now gets billing as 'editor' for the new Rust, does this mean
that this edition is not actually Rust ?
Dave
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
on 10/7/06 2:15, spacelights at spacelights@... wrote:
>> --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "spacelights" <spacelights@> wrote:
>>>
>>> I haven't read Berton's book, but Green always struck me as a petty,
>>> mean-spirited egomaniac... A shame, because he's a highly skilled and
>>> perceptive writer.
>>>
Just as there is no requirement for artistic geniuses to be totally
wonderful human beings, I guess there is nothing in the specification for
"perceptive critic" that requires it either, and a certain level of egotism
probably goes with the territory.
Green was certainly capable of being pretty mean-spirited about what he
disliked, which included most traditional jazz and all blues. Like most
critics he was best on those he liked and understood, such as John
Dankworth. This judgement also is based exclusively on his writing.
Talking of which, there may be some on this list who are unaware of his
autobiographical memoir 'Swingtime In Tottenham", a hilarous (and no doubt
greatly exggerated) account of his youthful career as an amateur saxophonist
playing the Jewish circuit in the next London suburb to this one, a world of
wide-boys, bar mitzvahs, and scheming mothers in desperate search of
husbands for unattractive daughters. Worth a couple of hours of anyone's
time (though it does have some characteristics of second-adolescence
writing).
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
on 10/7/06 9:07, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:
> Tall stories Howard ? I see in Lord that the banjoist Sam Tall now has a
> full 4 sessions from 1923-26 -- I forget which now. This neglected and
> obscure musician was entirely a whimsical fabrication by the editor of Jazz
> Journal , Sinclair Traill, in order to prove a point --which it still does.
> The name was pounced on by the ace train spotter and is now a 'Fact' .
Indeed it does (prove a point), but the ultimate irony is that the real name
of the banjoist on these sides is known. It is George Tall! See Chuck
Haddix's Kansas City book. So was this a double bluff?
George Tall joined AFM Local 627 Kansas City (colored) in October 1922. I
have seen the documentation myself. All we need now is for it prove that he
was known as "Sam" and then where are we?
Honestly I think we can take it that Traill actually knew that the banjoist
was called Tall and that he only invented the Sam part. To believe anything
else enters the realm of psychical research. It is still inexcusable that
even Rust 6 retains the mythical Sam. They could have copied the real name
from B&G.
>
> Oh, I see that Shaw, with whose article I was singularly unimpressed
> although I resist --with difficulty--bringing to it a dermatological
> diagnosis, now gets billing as 'editor' for the new Rust, does this mean
> that this edition is not actually Rust ?
I take it you're referring to Malcolm's VJM article, which may not be
obvious to everybody.
My understanding is that the manuscript Malcolm worked on contained many
changes made by Brian, and that Malcolm made further changes (such as
incorporating (much of) the contents of my "Not In Rust" column in Names &
Numbers and the revision of Henry Johnson & His Boys from B & G).
I don't know which of them was responsible for dropping Donald Lambert, and
I dare not ask.
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
Thanks Howard
Sam's brother, George, is new to me and I raise an eyebrow. How do we place
him on the Motens ?
Could not he be there as the most likely candidate in a Sam driven hunt ?
I shall try and dig up the relevant JJs but ,as Sam is likely to be in an
editorial, it will be a plough without index.
Traill was earless and cloutless and, although not without a sly canniness,
I think such a ruse beyond both his wits and his discographical prowess.
Dave
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Come on Dave
Sinc's ear was reasonable, he had a fair bit of clout, and his sly canniness
kept the Journal going for a long long time, with a bit of help from his
friends.
Tony Standish
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] A Tall Story was Benny Green (was Bixing )
> Thanks Howard
>
> Sam's brother, George, is new to me and I raise an eyebrow. How do we
> place
> him on the Motens ?
>
> Could not he be there as the most likely candidate in a Sam driven hunt ?
>
> I shall try and dig up the relevant JJs but ,as Sam is likely to be in an
> editorial, it will be a plough without index.
>
> Traill was earless and cloutless and, although not without a sly
> canniness,
> I think such a ruse beyond both his wits and his discographical prowess.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
>
> Green was certainly capable of being pretty mean-spirited about what he
> disliked, which included most traditional jazz and all blues.
That was what rankled me about him in the first place... Still, I
don't like the words I chose to express it, and I'm sorry for any
distress they may have caused at large.
John
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