Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band settings.  Reed players
play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even double on
trumpet, trombone or banjo.  Brass players double on other brass instruments
too.   I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names.   I've been
told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there is film of Jack
Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.

Ron L

-----Original Message-----
From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Tommer
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?

--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@...> wrote:
>
> I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I mean
are
> artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
instance,
> Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and violinists
and
> harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential vocalist, but I
> don't want to count the vocals.
>
> tommer
>

Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was it some
sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one major
instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other instruments
that were required for others.

That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that family
members were switching instruments.

For the freelancing example there is the example of James Rushing
that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was playing
the piano!

And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or even
the weird George Morrison story.

tommer


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

As far as doubling is concerned,I started to learn some of the other brass
instruments some
   43 years ago.I started out on cornet then switched to the E-flat tuba in late
1964.I later lear-
   ned the BBb tuba a couple of years later.I learned slide trombone at 14
then,at 16,learned
   the clarinet followed by the tenor sax in late 1968.My first sax was an old
Buescher C Mel-
   ody that was given to me.When I was on college,I decided to let those who were
better
   trumpeters that I do that.I switched over to baritone sax and I played that
instrument from
   time to time.From time to time,I did play either alto or tenor sax in various
concert and stage
   bands starting as a trumpeter in 1968.My lip on tuba is gone;I got a phone
call from a band
   director here back in 1972 when he learned I had played tuba in the school
orchestra when
   my alma mater,North Bend High School in North Bend,Oregon(this was in early
1970).I
   made a couple of rehearsals but my lip on the instrument never came back.What
was odd
   was that I hadn't played slide trombone since the early to mid '70s.A friend
of mine,who is
   a trombonist sold me an old Conn Director for $30 and I got to playing it and
my lip came
   back.I have a friend in Washington State who was a doubler as well.His first
instrument is
   the trombone but doubled trumpet as well as baritone sax.He felt that doubling
was thera-
   putic to his lip and he was right.I used to have a very flexable lip and I
could play pedal to-
   nes on tuba.The catch to this was I had to practise longer on my trumpet just
to keep my
   lip up.I once met a trumpeter(back in 1971)who was in the studios for years
and was doi-
   ng studio work at the time.He told me to quit doubling trombone and he did
have someth-
   ing of a point:whatever instrument I doubled,I had to work twice as hard to
keep my lip up
   on trumpet.Tommy Dorsey,for all his abilities,was never as good on trumpet as
he was on
   trombone.Benny Carter,however,surprised me:I once heard him on trombone and he
was
   quite good.His sound on trumpet was a bit thin.As for his abilities on
clarinet,he needed to
   work harder on that instrument.Getting back to Dorsey,his sound on trumpet was
rather
   "shakey".For me,I had little trouble switching from alto to tenor sax.What
people didn't
   like about my sound on tenor sax,for example,was that my sound on tenor was
too much
   like Coleman Hawkins for them.My sound on alto was too much like Benny Carter
for
   their liking.I ignored them,especially after Scott Hamilton came along.He made
a name for
   himself and I didn't.Still,I wouldn't change a thing about my sound on either
sax.That's my
   opinion for what it's worth.

Ron L <lherault@...> wrote:
           Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band settings. Reed
players
play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even double on
trumpet, trombone or banjo. Brass players double on other brass instruments
too. I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names. I've been
told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there is film of Jack
Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.

Ron L

-----Original Message-----
From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Tommer
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?

--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@...> wrote:
>
> I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I mean
are
> artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
instance,
> Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and violinists
and
> harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential vocalist, but I
> don't want to count the vocals.
>
> tommer
>

Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was it some
sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one major
instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other instruments
that were required for others.

That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that family
members were switching instruments.

For the freelancing example there is the example of James Rushing
that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was playing
the piano!

And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or even
the weird George Morrison story.

tommer

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links






---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you very much for I enjoyed reading this post very much and
learned from it.

At some point soloist are mastering an instrument's sound in such a
way that most anyone who hear an instrument on the surface he will
link it to those artists, though when listening in depth the
differences are quite obvious, especially unique improvisations of
artists, but because, maybe the tone and other surface elements it
goes like that that people are confusing different artists.

The rise of the importance of tone was part of what put an end to the
New Orleans swinging era IMO. And Louis Armstrong is perhaps a good
example because he had both the swinging and the tone and as time
went by he focused more on tone than improvising IMO.

I notived as an example that many of the influence-chains in books
are more because the surface tone than what musicians are really
doing in the core, the way they swing and improvise, their best
melodys improvisations, the syncopations they prefer and etc. So it
seems like everybody from Bubber Miley to Jabo Smith is influenced by
Oliver, or Armstrong on books, however, just because sometimes the
tone sounds very similar, especially when the plunger mute is used.

Personally I thought I like Tommy Dorsey on trumpet, but maybe I
confused him in my mind for Jimmy Dorsey. Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey are
good examples of multi-instrumentalist. Perhaps the folk/vaudeville
roots are part of it? Benny Carter seems to me was of the freelance
type of multi-instrumentalist or maybe because he arranged a lot,
Eddie Durham was another arranger and durham was quite groundbreaking
both on guitar and trombone, although he wasn't really a master of
any of those.
tommer

--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
<danvanlandingham@...> wrote:
>
> As far as doubling is concerned,I started to learn some of the
other brass instruments some
>   43 years ago.I started out on cornet then switched to the E-flat
tuba in late 1964.I later lear-
>   ned the BBb tuba a couple of years later.I learned slide trombone
at 14 then,at 16,learned
>   the clarinet followed by the tenor sax in late 1968.My first sax
was an old Buescher C Mel-
>   ody that was given to me.When I was on college,I decided to let
those who were better
>   trumpeters that I do that.I switched over to baritone sax and I
played that instrument from
>   time to time.From time to time,I did play either alto or tenor
sax in various concert and stage
>   bands starting as a trumpeter in 1968.My lip on tuba is gone;I
got a phone call from a band
>   director here back in 1972 when he learned I had played tuba in
the school orchestra when
>   my alma mater,North Bend High School in North Bend,Oregon(this
was in early 1970).I
>   made a couple of rehearsals but my lip on the instrument never
came back.What was odd
>   was that I hadn't played slide trombone since the early to
mid '70s.A friend of mine,who is
>   a trombonist sold me an old Conn Director for $30 and I got to
playing it and my lip came
>   back.I have a friend in Washington State who was a doubler as
well.His first instrument is
>   the trombone but doubled trumpet as well as baritone sax.He felt
that doubling was thera-
>   putic to his lip and he was right.I used to have a very flexable
lip and I could play pedal to-
>   nes on tuba.The catch to this was I had to practise longer on my
trumpet just to keep my
>   lip up.I once met a trumpeter(back in 1971)who was in the studios
for years and was doi-
>   ng studio work at the time.He told me to quit doubling trombone
and he did have someth-
>   ing of a point:whatever instrument I doubled,I had to work twice
as hard to keep my lip up
>   on trumpet.Tommy Dorsey,for all his abilities,was never as good
on trumpet as he was on
>   trombone.Benny Carter,however,surprised me:I once heard him on
trombone and he was
>   quite good.His sound on trumpet was a bit thin.As for his
abilities on clarinet,he needed to
>   work harder on that instrument.Getting back to Dorsey,his sound
on trumpet was rather
>   "shakey".For me,I had little trouble switching from alto to tenor
sax.What people didn't
>   like about my sound on tenor sax,for example,was that my sound on
tenor was too much
>   like Coleman Hawkins for them.My sound on alto was too much like
Benny Carter for
>   their liking.I ignored them,especially after Scott Hamilton came
along.He made a name for
>   himself and I didn't.Still,I wouldn't change a thing about my
sound on either sax.That's my
>   opinion for what it's worth.
>
> Ron L <lherault@...> wrote:
>           Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band
settings. Reed players
> play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even double
on
> trumpet, trombone or banjo. Brass players double on other brass
instruments
> too. I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names. I've
been
> told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there is film
of Jack
> Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.
>
> Ron L
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Tommer
> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
> To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?
>
> --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I mean
> are
> > artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
> instance,
> > Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and
violinists
> and
> > harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential vocalist, but
I
> > don't want to count the vocals.
> >
> > tommer
> >
>
> Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
> multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was it some
> sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one major
> instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other instruments
> that were required for others.
>
> That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
> instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that family
> members were switching instruments.
>
> For the freelancing example there is the example of James Rushing
> that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was
playing
> the piano!
>
> And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or even
> the weird George Morrison story.
>
> tommer
>

To add to my previous blog:I learned to play on an old pump organ back in
1961.When I was in my early twenties,I learned guitar and bass guitar.I
perform,from time to time,as a
   guitarist and was a professional electric bass player,trumpeter and
saxophonist back in
   1973.I once tried the accordion but it wasn't my instrument.I left that to my
late uncle Da-
   ve Morgan who was another multi-instrumentalist(piano,accordion and
trumpet).His older
   sisters were also doublers:both played tenor guitar,mandolin,piano and
violin.I heard my
   late aunt Isabel play violin and she had a nice sound.Violin is another
instrument I played
   but my fingers are stiff now.I haven't touched it in years.

Tommer <tommersl@...> wrote:
           Thank you very much for I enjoyed reading this post very much and
learned from it.

At some point soloist are mastering an instrument's sound in such a
way that most anyone who hear an instrument on the surface he will
link it to those artists, though when listening in depth the
differences are quite obvious, especially unique improvisations of
artists, but because, maybe the tone and other surface elements it
goes like that that people are confusing different artists.

The rise of the importance of tone was part of what put an end to the
New Orleans swinging era IMO. And Louis Armstrong is perhaps a good
example because he had both the swinging and the tone and as time
went by he focused more on tone than improvising IMO.

I notived as an example that many of the influence-chains in books
are more because the surface tone than what musicians are really
doing in the core, the way they swing and improvise, their best
melodys improvisations, the syncopations they prefer and etc. So it
seems like everybody from Bubber Miley to Jabo Smith is influenced by
Oliver, or Armstrong on books, however, just because sometimes the
tone sounds very similar, especially when the plunger mute is used.

Personally I thought I like Tommy Dorsey on trumpet, but maybe I
confused him in my mind for Jimmy Dorsey. Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey are
good examples of multi-instrumentalist. Perhaps the folk/vaudeville
roots are part of it? Benny Carter seems to me was of the freelance
type of multi-instrumentalist or maybe because he arranged a lot,
Eddie Durham was another arranger and durham was quite groundbreaking
both on guitar and trombone, although he wasn't really a master of
any of those.
tommer

--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
<danvanlandingham@...> wrote:
>
> As far as doubling is concerned,I started to learn some of the
other brass instruments some
> 43 years ago.I started out on cornet then switched to the E-flat
tuba in late 1964.I later lear-
> ned the BBb tuba a couple of years later.I learned slide trombone
at 14 then,at 16,learned
> the clarinet followed by the tenor sax in late 1968.My first sax
was an old Buescher C Mel-
> ody that was given to me.When I was on college,I decided to let
those who were better
> trumpeters that I do that.I switched over to baritone sax and I
played that instrument from
> time to time.From time to time,I did play either alto or tenor
sax in various concert and stage
> bands starting as a trumpeter in 1968.My lip on tuba is gone;I
got a phone call from a band
> director here back in 1972 when he learned I had played tuba in
the school orchestra when
> my alma mater,North Bend High School in North Bend,Oregon(this
was in early 1970).I
> made a couple of rehearsals but my lip on the instrument never
came back.What was odd
> was that I hadn't played slide trombone since the early to
mid '70s.A friend of mine,who is
> a trombonist sold me an old Conn Director for $30 and I got to
playing it and my lip came
> back.I have a friend in Washington State who was a doubler as
well.His first instrument is
> the trombone but doubled trumpet as well as baritone sax.He felt
that doubling was thera-
> putic to his lip and he was right.I used to have a very flexable
lip and I could play pedal to-
> nes on tuba.The catch to this was I had to practise longer on my
trumpet just to keep my
> lip up.I once met a trumpeter(back in 1971)who was in the studios
for years and was doi-
> ng studio work at the time.He told me to quit doubling trombone
and he did have someth-
> ing of a point:whatever instrument I doubled,I had to work twice
as hard to keep my lip up
> on trumpet.Tommy Dorsey,for all his abilities,was never as good
on trumpet as he was on
> trombone.Benny Carter,however,surprised me:I once heard him on
trombone and he was
> quite good.His sound on trumpet was a bit thin.As for his
abilities on clarinet,he needed to
> work harder on that instrument.Getting back to Dorsey,his sound
on trumpet was rather
> "shakey".For me,I had little trouble switching from alto to tenor
sax.What people didn't
> like about my sound on tenor sax,for example,was that my sound on
tenor was too much
> like Coleman Hawkins for them.My sound on alto was too much like
Benny Carter for
> their liking.I ignored them,especially after Scott Hamilton came
along.He made a name for
> himself and I didn't.Still,I wouldn't change a thing about my
sound on either sax.That's my
> opinion for what it's worth.
>
> Ron L <lherault@...> wrote:
> Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band
settings. Reed players
> play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even double
on
> trumpet, trombone or banjo. Brass players double on other brass
instruments
> too. I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names. I've
been
> told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there is film
of Jack
> Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.
>
> Ron L
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Tommer
> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
> To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?
>
> --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I mean
> are
> > artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
> instance,
> > Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and
violinists
> and
> > harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential vocalist, but
I
> > don't want to count the vocals.
> >
> > tommer
> >
>
> Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
> multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was it some
> sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one major
> instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other instruments
> that were required for others.
>
> That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
> instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that family
> members were switching instruments.
>
> For the freelancing example there is the example of James Rushing
> that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was
playing
> the piano!
>
> And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or even
> the weird George Morrison story.
>
> tommer
>






---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The great Adrian Rollini played a whole bunch of instruments: bass
sax, piano, goofus, hot fountain pen, celeste, vibraphone, xylophone.

The redhotjazz site has the following about Sidney Bechet's One-Man
Band, New York, April 18, 1941, Victor 27485.

"This is a strange record. The Sheik Of Araby is an early example of
multi-track recording. Sidney Bechet was at the RCA studios on April
18th, 1941 (before tape) and the engineers fiddled with some early
multiple recordings. This is the result. Record an instrument, play
the record back while he played another instrument along with the
record, ad nauseum - the first ones recorded sounding worse each time
another record is made. Clarinet, soprano saxophone, tenor saxophone,
piano, bass and drums, all played by Bechet. If you can hear the
drums, you win a cigar."

Brian Rust lists Bechet also playing string bass in the recording of
The Sheik of Araby mentioned in the redhotjazz site.

I was not uncommon for sax players to double on violin.

Albert

--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
<danvanlandingham@...> wrote:
>
>  To add to my previous blog:I learned to play on an old pump organ
back in 1961.When I was in my early twenties,I learned guitar and bass
guitar.I perform,from time to time,as a
>   guitarist and was a professional electric bass player,trumpeter
and saxophonist back in
>   1973.I once tried the accordion but it wasn't my instrument.I left
that to my late uncle Da-
>   ve Morgan who was another multi-instrumentalist(piano,accordion
and trumpet).His older
>   sisters were also doublers:both played tenor guitar,mandolin,piano
and violin.I heard my
>   late aunt Isabel play violin and she had a nice sound.Violin is
another instrument I played
>   but my fingers are stiff now.I haven't touched it in years.
>
> Tommer <tommersl@...> wrote:
>           Thank you very much for I enjoyed reading this post very
much and
> learned from it.
>
> At some point soloist are mastering an instrument's sound in such a
> way that most anyone who hear an instrument on the surface he will
> link it to those artists, though when listening in depth the
> differences are quite obvious, especially unique improvisations of
> artists, but because, maybe the tone and other surface elements it
> goes like that that people are confusing different artists.
>
> The rise of the importance of tone was part of what put an end to the
> New Orleans swinging era IMO. And Louis Armstrong is perhaps a good
> example because he had both the swinging and the tone and as time
> went by he focused more on tone than improvising IMO.
>
> I notived as an example that many of the influence-chains in books
> are more because the surface tone than what musicians are really
> doing in the core, the way they swing and improvise, their best
> melodys improvisations, the syncopations they prefer and etc. So it
> seems like everybody from Bubber Miley to Jabo Smith is influenced by
> Oliver, or Armstrong on books, however, just because sometimes the
> tone sounds very similar, especially when the plunger mute is used.
>
> Personally I thought I like Tommy Dorsey on trumpet, but maybe I
> confused him in my mind for Jimmy Dorsey. Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey are
> good examples of multi-instrumentalist. Perhaps the folk/vaudeville
> roots are part of it? Benny Carter seems to me was of the freelance
> type of multi-instrumentalist or maybe because he arranged a lot,
> Eddie Durham was another arranger and durham was quite groundbreaking
> both on guitar and trombone, although he wasn't really a master of
> any of those.
> tommer
>
> --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
> <danvanlandingham@> wrote:
> >
> > As far as doubling is concerned,I started to learn some of the
> other brass instruments some
> > 43 years ago.I started out on cornet then switched to the E-flat
> tuba in late 1964.I later lear-
> > ned the BBb tuba a couple of years later.I learned slide trombone
> at 14 then,at 16,learned
> > the clarinet followed by the tenor sax in late 1968.My first sax
> was an old Buescher C Mel-
> > ody that was given to me.When I was on college,I decided to let
> those who were better
> > trumpeters that I do that.I switched over to baritone sax and I
> played that instrument from
> > time to time.From time to time,I did play either alto or tenor
> sax in various concert and stage
> > bands starting as a trumpeter in 1968.My lip on tuba is gone;I
> got a phone call from a band
> > director here back in 1972 when he learned I had played tuba in
> the school orchestra when
> > my alma mater,North Bend High School in North Bend,Oregon(this
> was in early 1970).I
> > made a couple of rehearsals but my lip on the instrument never
> came back.What was odd
> > was that I hadn't played slide trombone since the early to
> mid '70s.A friend of mine,who is
> > a trombonist sold me an old Conn Director for $30 and I got to
> playing it and my lip came
> > back.I have a friend in Washington State who was a doubler as
> well.His first instrument is
> > the trombone but doubled trumpet as well as baritone sax.He felt
> that doubling was thera-
> > putic to his lip and he was right.I used to have a very flexable
> lip and I could play pedal to-
> > nes on tuba.The catch to this was I had to practise longer on my
> trumpet just to keep my
> > lip up.I once met a trumpeter(back in 1971)who was in the studios
> for years and was doi-
> > ng studio work at the time.He told me to quit doubling trombone
> and he did have someth-
> > ing of a point:whatever instrument I doubled,I had to work twice
> as hard to keep my lip up
> > on trumpet.Tommy Dorsey,for all his abilities,was never as good
> on trumpet as he was on
> > trombone.Benny Carter,however,surprised me:I once heard him on
> trombone and he was
> > quite good.His sound on trumpet was a bit thin.As for his
> abilities on clarinet,he needed to
> > work harder on that instrument.Getting back to Dorsey,his sound
> on trumpet was rather
> > "shakey".For me,I had little trouble switching from alto to tenor
> sax.What people didn't
> > like about my sound on tenor sax,for example,was that my sound on
> tenor was too much
> > like Coleman Hawkins for them.My sound on alto was too much like
> Benny Carter for
> > their liking.I ignored them,especially after Scott Hamilton came
> along.He made a name for
> > himself and I didn't.Still,I wouldn't change a thing about my
> sound on either sax.That's my
> > opinion for what it's worth.
> >
> > Ron L <lherault@> wrote:
> > Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band
> settings. Reed players
> > play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even double
> on
> > trumpet, trombone or banjo. Brass players double on other brass
> instruments
> > too. I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names. I've
> been
> > told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there is film
> of Jack
> > Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.
> >
> > Ron L
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of Tommer
> > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
> > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?
> >
> > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I mean
> > are
> > > artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
> > instance,
> > > Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and
> violinists
> > and
> > > harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential vocalist, but
> I
> > > don't want to count the vocals.
> > >
> > > tommer
> > >
> >
> > Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
> > multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was it some
> > sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one major
> > instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other instruments
> > that were required for others.
> >
> > That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
> > instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that family
> > members were switching instruments.
> >
> > For the freelancing example there is the example of James Rushing
> > that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was
> playing
> > the piano!
> >
> > And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or even
> > the weird George Morrison story.
> >
> > tommer
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
Try it now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

There are problems connecting to the music files in the site. I
notified Scott.

Albert

Bechet's One Man Band record, although quasi-overdubbed, gets at what
I think is the only interest in most cases of multi-instrumentalists:
the playing of more than one instrument during a single tune. Not so
much simultaneously, as with true one man bands, but rather
successively. Ray Nance, for example, or Slick Jones' switch from a
melodic vibe solo to hot drumming on the extended studio version
of "Honeysuckle Rose".

But why should one be amazed by professional competency, if perhaps
not mastery, of several instruments? The basic knowledge of diatonic
music readily transfers when each instruments' technique is learned,
and for some instruments, such as sax and clarinet, the fingerings
are already similar. And rhythmic aptitude is internal, as every good
dancer proves. There are certainly differences between the touch and
sustain of an organ to a piano, or technique for tenor guitar vs.
banjo, for example, and within each instrument's capabilities there
are nearly limitless stylistic variations, but the musical framework
is the same.

Just last night, in Milt Hinton's autobiography "Bass Line", I read
about the formal training received by he and so many of his childhood
peers in Chicago. Excellent training in classical, brass band and
parlor music was common, even if sometimes given informally, and even
when it might only eventuate in the likes of circus band work. The
story is the same elsewhere-George Morrison's family in Denver, The
Jenkins Orphanage, Portia Pittman in Dallas, etc. The aforementioned
hot drummer Slick Jones studied piano in his provincial youth and
attended conservatory in New York, yet his image among many fans is
of an intuitive rhythm ace.

The formal knowledge of pre-war jazz men is often underestimated,
whether by ignorance or intention, and perhaps the lesser training of
some more recent musicians allows reinforcement of this assumption. I
can see nothing inherent in formal training that "makes people
believe in" misconceptions about jazz, as Tommers wrote. Perhaps a
naive desire for early jazz players to fit the "intuitive genuis"
mold persists some places, but it shouldn't.

Warren
     --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...>
wrote:
>
> The great Adrian Rollini played a whole bunch of instruments: bass
> sax, piano, goofus, hot fountain pen, celeste, vibraphone,
xylophone.
>
> The redhotjazz site has the following about Sidney Bechet's One-Man
> Band, New York, April 18, 1941, Victor 27485.
>
> "This is a strange record. The Sheik Of Araby is an early example of
> multi-track recording. Sidney Bechet was at the RCA studios on April
> 18th, 1941 (before tape) and the engineers fiddled with some early
> multiple recordings. This is the result. Record an instrument, play
> the record back while he played another instrument along with the
> record, ad nauseum - the first ones recorded sounding worse each
time
> another record is made. Clarinet, soprano saxophone, tenor
saxophone,
> piano, bass and drums, all played by Bechet. If you can hear the
> drums, you win a cigar."
>
> Brian Rust lists Bechet also playing string bass in the recording of
> The Sheik of Araby mentioned in the redhotjazz site.
>
> I was not uncommon for sax players to double on violin.
>
> Albert
>
> --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
> <danvanlandingham@> wrote:
> >
> >  To add to my previous blog:I learned to play on an old pump organ
> back in 1961.When I was in my early twenties,I learned guitar and
bass
> guitar.I perform,from time to time,as a
> >   guitarist and was a professional electric bass player,trumpeter
> and saxophonist back in
> >   1973.I once tried the accordion but it wasn't my instrument.I
left
> that to my late uncle Da-
> >   ve Morgan who was another multi-instrumentalist(piano,accordion
> and trumpet).His older
> >   sisters were also doublers:both played tenor
guitar,mandolin,piano
> and violin.I heard my
> >   late aunt Isabel play violin and she had a nice sound.Violin is
> another instrument I played
> >   but my fingers are stiff now.I haven't touched it in years.
> >
> > Tommer <tommersl@> wrote:
> >           Thank you very much for I enjoyed reading this post very
> much and
> > learned from it.
> >
> > At some point soloist are mastering an instrument's sound in such
a
> > way that most anyone who hear an instrument on the surface he
will
> > link it to those artists, though when listening in depth the
> > differences are quite obvious, especially unique improvisations
of
> > artists, but because, maybe the tone and other surface elements
it
> > goes like that that people are confusing different artists.
> >
> > The rise of the importance of tone was part of what put an end to
the
> > New Orleans swinging era IMO. And Louis Armstrong is perhaps a
good
> > example because he had both the swinging and the tone and as time
> > went by he focused more on tone than improvising IMO.
> >
> > I notived as an example that many of the influence-chains in
books
> > are more because the surface tone than what musicians are really
> > doing in the core, the way they swing and improvise, their best
> > melodys improvisations, the syncopations they prefer and etc. So
it
> > seems like everybody from Bubber Miley to Jabo Smith is
influenced by
> > Oliver, or Armstrong on books, however, just because sometimes
the
> > tone sounds very similar, especially when the plunger mute is
used.
> >
> > Personally I thought I like Tommy Dorsey on trumpet, but maybe I
> > confused him in my mind for Jimmy Dorsey. Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey
are
> > good examples of multi-instrumentalist. Perhaps the
folk/vaudeville
> > roots are part of it? Benny Carter seems to me was of the
freelance
> > type of multi-instrumentalist or maybe because he arranged a lot,
> > Eddie Durham was another arranger and durham was quite
groundbreaking
> > both on guitar and trombone, although he wasn't really a master
of
> > any of those.
> > tommer
> >
> > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
> > <danvanlandingham@> wrote:
> > >
> > > As far as doubling is concerned,I started to learn some of the
> > other brass instruments some
> > > 43 years ago.I started out on cornet then switched to the E-
flat
> > tuba in late 1964.I later lear-
> > > ned the BBb tuba a couple of years later.I learned slide
trombone
> > at 14 then,at 16,learned
> > > the clarinet followed by the tenor sax in late 1968.My first
sax
> > was an old Buescher C Mel-
> > > ody that was given to me.When I was on college,I decided to let
> > those who were better
> > > trumpeters that I do that.I switched over to baritone sax and I
> > played that instrument from
> > > time to time.From time to time,I did play either alto or tenor
> > sax in various concert and stage
> > > bands starting as a trumpeter in 1968.My lip on tuba is gone;I
> > got a phone call from a band
> > > director here back in 1972 when he learned I had played tuba in
> > the school orchestra when
> > > my alma mater,North Bend High School in North Bend,Oregon(this
> > was in early 1970).I
> > > made a couple of rehearsals but my lip on the instrument never
> > came back.What was odd
> > > was that I hadn't played slide trombone since the early to
> > mid '70s.A friend of mine,who is
> > > a trombonist sold me an old Conn Director for $30 and I got to
> > playing it and my lip came
> > > back.I have a friend in Washington State who was a doubler as
> > well.His first instrument is
> > > the trombone but doubled trumpet as well as baritone sax.He
felt
> > that doubling was thera-
> > > putic to his lip and he was right.I used to have a very
flexable
> > lip and I could play pedal to-
> > > nes on tuba.The catch to this was I had to practise longer on
my
> > trumpet just to keep my
> > > lip up.I once met a trumpeter(back in 1971)who was in the
studios
> > for years and was doi-
> > > ng studio work at the time.He told me to quit doubling trombone
> > and he did have someth-
> > > ing of a point:whatever instrument I doubled,I had to work
twice
> > as hard to keep my lip up
> > > on trumpet.Tommy Dorsey,for all his abilities,was never as good
> > on trumpet as he was on
> > > trombone.Benny Carter,however,surprised me:I once heard him on
> > trombone and he was
> > > quite good.His sound on trumpet was a bit thin.As for his
> > abilities on clarinet,he needed to
> > > work harder on that instrument.Getting back to Dorsey,his sound
> > on trumpet was rather
> > > "shakey".For me,I had little trouble switching from alto to
tenor
> > sax.What people didn't
> > > like about my sound on tenor sax,for example,was that my sound
on
> > tenor was too much
> > > like Coleman Hawkins for them.My sound on alto was too much
like
> > Benny Carter for
> > > their liking.I ignored them,especially after Scott Hamilton
came
> > along.He made a name for
> > > himself and I didn't.Still,I wouldn't change a thing about my
> > sound on either sax.That's my
> > > opinion for what it's worth.
> > >
> > > Ron L <lherault@> wrote:
> > > Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band
> > settings. Reed players
> > > play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even
double
> > on
> > > trumpet, trombone or banjo. Brass players double on other brass
> > instruments
> > > too. I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names.
I've
> > been
> > > told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there is
film
> > of Jack
> > > Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.
> > >
> > > Ron L
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
> > > Behalf Of Tommer
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
> > > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?
> > >
> > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I
mean
> > > are
> > > > artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
> > > instance,
> > > > Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and
> > violinists
> > > and
> > > > harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential vocalist,
but
> > I
> > > > don't want to count the vocals.
> > > >
> > > > tommer
> > > >
> > >
> > > Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
> > > multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was it
some
> > > sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one
major
> > > instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other
instruments
> > > that were required for others.
> > >
> > > That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
> > > instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that family
> > > members were switching instruments.
> > >
> > > For the freelancing example there is the example of James
Rushing
> > > that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was
> > playing
> > > the piano!
> > >
> > > And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or
even
> > > the weird George Morrison story.
> > >
> > > tommer
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile.
> Try it now.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

My apologies for the failure to trim the earlier long post from my
previous reply message, an oversight I will be more aware of next time,
lest my post's message get conflated with the (rather self-indulgent)
post at the bottom.

Warren

--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "ikey100" <wlmoorman3@...> wrote:
>
> Bechet's One Man Band record, although quasi-overdubbed, gets at
what
> I think is the only interest in most cases of multi-
instrumentalists:
> the playing of more than one instrument during a single tune. Not
so
> much simultaneously, as with true one man bands, but rather
> successively. Ray Nance, for example, or Slick Jones' switch from a
> melodic vibe solo to hot drumming on the extended studio version
> of "Honeysuckle Rose".
>
> But why should one be amazed by professional competency, if perhaps
> not mastery, of several instruments? The basic knowledge of
diatonic
> music readily transfers when each instruments' technique is
learned,
> and for some instruments, such as sax and clarinet, the fingerings
> are already similar. And rhythmic aptitude is internal, as every
good
> dancer proves. There are certainly differences between the touch
and
> sustain of an organ to a piano, or technique for tenor guitar vs.
> banjo, for example, and within each instrument's capabilities there
> are nearly limitless stylistic variations, but the musical
framework
> is the same.
>
> Just last night, in Milt Hinton's autobiography "Bass Line", I read
> about the formal training received by he and so many of his
childhood
> peers in Chicago. Excellent training in classical, brass band and
> parlor music was common, even if sometimes given informally, and
even
> when it might only eventuate in the likes of circus band work. The
> story is the same elsewhere-George Morrison's family in Denver, The
> Jenkins Orphanage, Portia Pittman in Dallas, etc. The
aforementioned
> hot drummer Slick Jones studied piano in his provincial youth and
> attended conservatory in New York, yet his image among many fans is
> of an intuitive rhythm ace.
>
> The formal knowledge of pre-war jazz men is often underestimated,
> whether by ignorance or intention, and perhaps the lesser training
of
> some more recent musicians allows reinforcement of this assumption.
I
> can see nothing inherent in formal training that "makes people
> believe in" misconceptions about jazz, as Tommers wrote. Perhaps a
> naive desire for early jazz players to fit the "intuitive genuis"
> mold persists some places, but it shouldn't.
>
> Warren
>     --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
> wrote:
> >
> > The great Adrian Rollini played a whole bunch of instruments: bass
> > sax, piano, goofus, hot fountain pen, celeste, vibraphone,
> xylophone.
> >
> > The redhotjazz site has the following about Sidney Bechet's One-
Man
> > Band, New York, April 18, 1941, Victor 27485.
> >
> > "This is a strange record. The Sheik Of Araby is an early example
of
> > multi-track recording. Sidney Bechet was at the RCA studios on
April
> > 18th, 1941 (before tape) and the engineers fiddled with some early
> > multiple recordings. This is the result. Record an instrument,
play
> > the record back while he played another instrument along with the
> > record, ad nauseum - the first ones recorded sounding worse each
> time
> > another record is made. Clarinet, soprano saxophone, tenor
> saxophone,
> > piano, bass and drums, all played by Bechet. If you can hear the
> > drums, you win a cigar."
> >
> > Brian Rust lists Bechet also playing string bass in the recording
of
> > The Sheik of Araby mentioned in the redhotjazz site.
> >
> > I was not uncommon for sax players to double on violin.
> >
> > Albert
> >
> > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
> > <danvanlandingham@> wrote:
> > >
> > >  To add to my previous blog:I learned to play on an old pump
organ
> > back in 1961.When I was in my early twenties,I learned guitar and
> bass
> > guitar.I perform,from time to time,as a
> > >   guitarist and was a professional electric bass
player,trumpeter
> > and saxophonist back in
> > >   1973.I once tried the accordion but it wasn't my instrument.I
> left
> > that to my late uncle Da-
> > >   ve Morgan who was another multi-instrumentalist
(piano,accordion
> > and trumpet).His older
> > >   sisters were also doublers:both played tenor
> guitar,mandolin,piano
> > and violin.I heard my
> > >   late aunt Isabel play violin and she had a nice sound.Violin
is
> > another instrument I played
> > >   but my fingers are stiff now.I haven't touched it in years.
> > >
> > > Tommer <tommersl@> wrote:
> > >           Thank you very much for I enjoyed reading this post
very
> > much and
> > > learned from it.
> > >
> > > At some point soloist are mastering an instrument's sound in
such
> a
> > > way that most anyone who hear an instrument on the surface he
> will
> > > link it to those artists, though when listening in depth the
> > > differences are quite obvious, especially unique improvisations
> of
> > > artists, but because, maybe the tone and other surface elements
> it
> > > goes like that that people are confusing different artists.
> > >
> > > The rise of the importance of tone was part of what put an end
to
> the
> > > New Orleans swinging era IMO. And Louis Armstrong is perhaps a
> good
> > > example because he had both the swinging and the tone and as
time
> > > went by he focused more on tone than improvising IMO.
> > >
> > > I notived as an example that many of the influence-chains in
> books
> > > are more because the surface tone than what musicians are
really
> > > doing in the core, the way they swing and improvise, their best
> > > melodys improvisations, the syncopations they prefer and etc.
So
> it
> > > seems like everybody from Bubber Miley to Jabo Smith is
> influenced by
> > > Oliver, or Armstrong on books, however, just because sometimes
> the
> > > tone sounds very similar, especially when the plunger mute is
> used.
> > >
> > > Personally I thought I like Tommy Dorsey on trumpet, but maybe
I
> > > confused him in my mind for Jimmy Dorsey. Tommy and Jimmy
Dorsey
> are
> > > good examples of multi-instrumentalist. Perhaps the
> folk/vaudeville
> > > roots are part of it? Benny Carter seems to me was of the
> freelance
> > > type of multi-instrumentalist or maybe because he arranged a
lot,
> > > Eddie Durham was another arranger and durham was quite
> groundbreaking
> > > both on guitar and trombone, although he wasn't really a master
> of
> > > any of those.
> > > tommer
> > >
> > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
> > > <danvanlandingham@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > As far as doubling is concerned,I started to learn some of
the
> > > other brass instruments some
> > > > 43 years ago.I started out on cornet then switched to the E-
> flat
> > > tuba in late 1964.I later lear-
> > > > ned the BBb tuba a couple of years later.I learned slide
> trombone
> > > at 14 then,at 16,learned
> > > > the clarinet followed by the tenor sax in late 1968.My first
> sax
> > > was an old Buescher C Mel-
> > > > ody that was given to me.When I was on college,I decided to
let
> > > those who were better
> > > > trumpeters that I do that.I switched over to baritone sax and
I
> > > played that instrument from
> > > > time to time.From time to time,I did play either alto or
tenor
> > > sax in various concert and stage
> > > > bands starting as a trumpeter in 1968.My lip on tuba is
gone;I
> > > got a phone call from a band
> > > > director here back in 1972 when he learned I had played tuba
in
> > > the school orchestra when
> > > > my alma mater,North Bend High School in North Bend,Oregon
(this
> > > was in early 1970).I
> > > > made a couple of rehearsals but my lip on the instrument
never
> > > came back.What was odd
> > > > was that I hadn't played slide trombone since the early to
> > > mid '70s.A friend of mine,who is
> > > > a trombonist sold me an old Conn Director for $30 and I got
to
> > > playing it and my lip came
> > > > back.I have a friend in Washington State who was a doubler as
> > > well.His first instrument is
> > > > the trombone but doubled trumpet as well as baritone sax.He
> felt
> > > that doubling was thera-
> > > > putic to his lip and he was right.I used to have a very
> flexable
> > > lip and I could play pedal to-
> > > > nes on tuba.The catch to this was I had to practise longer on
> my
> > > trumpet just to keep my
> > > > lip up.I once met a trumpeter(back in 1971)who was in the
> studios
> > > for years and was doi-
> > > > ng studio work at the time.He told me to quit doubling
trombone
> > > and he did have someth-
> > > > ing of a point:whatever instrument I doubled,I had to work
> twice
> > > as hard to keep my lip up
> > > > on trumpet.Tommy Dorsey,for all his abilities,was never as
good
> > > on trumpet as he was on
> > > > trombone.Benny Carter,however,surprised me:I once heard him
on
> > > trombone and he was
> > > > quite good.His sound on trumpet was a bit thin.As for his
> > > abilities on clarinet,he needed to
> > > > work harder on that instrument.Getting back to Dorsey,his
sound
> > > on trumpet was rather
> > > > "shakey".For me,I had little trouble switching from alto to
> tenor
> > > sax.What people didn't
> > > > like about my sound on tenor sax,for example,was that my
sound
> on
> > > tenor was too much
> > > > like Coleman Hawkins for them.My sound on alto was too much
> like
> > > Benny Carter for
> > > > their liking.I ignored them,especially after Scott Hamilton
> came
> > > along.He made a name for
> > > > himself and I didn't.Still,I wouldn't change a thing about my
> > > sound on either sax.That's my
> > > > opinion for what it's worth.
> > > >
> > > > Ron L <lherault@> wrote:
> > > > Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band
> > > settings. Reed players
> > > > play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even
> double
> > > on
> > > > trumpet, trombone or banjo. Brass players double on other
brass
> > > instruments
> > > > too. I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names.
> I've
> > > been
> > > > told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there
is
> film
> > > of Jack
> > > > Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.
> > > >
> > > > Ron L
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
> > > > Behalf Of Tommer
> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
> > > > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?
> > > >
> > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I
> mean
> > > > are
> > > > > artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
> > > > instance,
> > > > > Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and
> > > violinists
> > > > and
> > > > > harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential
vocalist,
> but
> > > I
> > > > > don't want to count the vocals.
> > > > >
> > > > > tommer
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
> > > > multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was
it
> some
> > > > sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one
> major
> > > > instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other
> instruments
> > > > that were required for others.
> > > >
> > > > That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
> > > > instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that
family
> > > > members were switching instruments.
> > > >
> > > > For the freelancing example there is the example of James
> Rushing
> > > > that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was
> > > playing
> > > > the piano!
> > > >
> > > > And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or
> even
> > > > the weird George Morrison story.
> > > >
> > > > tommer
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
> Mobile.
> > Try it now.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

My appologize for the previous post, I wrote something and after I
clicked "send" it gave me "page not found error". I went back and
clicked again but it didn't use what I wrote instead the previous posts
of others that I replied to, before I trimmed and put my text in. I'll
write it again later.

Tommer

I agree with what you wrote, what I meant is a situation that people
think that Jazz = Classical music played by not trained artists, or
something like Jazz is a distortion of strict music (Classical), or
that all significant ideas in music are contained in the Classical
music and Jazz added nothing to that.

The more moderated approach of Classical music propogandists is that
Jazz is "improvisation" on Classical music, and that was what Morrison
(edited by Schuller) were talking about in the interview. Jazzing-up
the Tin Pan Alley with drums and improvisations.
Tommer
--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "ikey100" <wlmoorman3@...> wrote:
>
>
> The formal knowledge of pre-war jazz men is often underestimated,
> whether by ignorance or intention, and perhaps the lesser training
  of
> some more recent musicians allows reinforcement of this assumption.
  I
> can see nothing inherent in formal training that "makes people
> believe in" misconceptions about jazz, as Tommers wrote. Perhaps a
> naive desire for early jazz players to fit the "intuitive genuis"
> mold persists some places, but it shouldn't.
>
> Warren

I think "Classical" does not mean much anyway. Anything likely to be taught
in classes? In that case, there are plenty of different types of "classical"
music which request long years and even decades of training (Algerian
"Nouba", Indian "Raga"...) and still have nothing to do with European music
of the XVIIIth century. The so-called "classical" standards only match a
comparatively brief period of time in the history of European music, and
miss the essence of most folk genres. They're just a grammar, with the same
type of blind windows as the sets of rules designed to describe human
languages, plus the ridiculous claim to account for every single note played
since the birth of mankind, and to be the universal "basis" of all musical
genres.
Instrumental training wih a classical background, or the ability to read
scores, never hampered anyone's genius, but if you cannot find your own way
out of their limitations I doubt you can go very far... I heard excellent
professional musicians actually "improvising" on jazz tunes, with a very
disappointing result because jazz was not part of their musical culture.

Patrice

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tommer" <tommersl@...>
To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 9:35 PM
Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?


>I agree with what you wrote, what I meant is a situation that people
> think that Jazz = Classical music played by not trained artists, or
> something like Jazz is a distortion of strict music (Classical), or
> that all significant ideas in music are contained in the Classical
> music and Jazz added nothing to that.
>
> The more moderated approach of Classical music propogandists is that
> Jazz is "improvisation" on Classical music, and that was what Morrison
> (edited by Schuller) were talking about in the interview. Jazzing-up
> the Tin Pan Alley with drums and improvisations.
> Tommer

The "Classical" word came early on Schuller's book and was part of
the terminology of it to the very end.
Tommer

--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Patrice Champarou"
<patrice.champarou@...> wrote:
>
> I think "Classical" does not mean much anyway. Anything likely to
be taught
> in classes? In that case, there are plenty of different types
of "classical"
> music which request long years and even decades of training
(Algerian
> "Nouba", Indian "Raga"...) and still have nothing to do with
European music
> of the XVIIIth century. The so-called "classical" standards only
match a
> comparatively brief period of time in the history of European
music, and
> miss the essence of most folk genres. They're just a grammar, with
the same
> type of blind windows as the sets of rules designed to describe
human
> languages, plus the ridiculous claim to account for every single
note played
> since the birth of mankind, and to be the universal "basis" of all
musical
> genres.
> Instrumental training wih a classical background, or the ability to
read
> scores, never hampered anyone's genius, but if you cannot find your
own way
> out of their limitations I doubt you can go very far... I heard
excellent
> professional musicians actually "improvising" on jazz tunes, with a
very
> disappointing result because jazz was not part of their musical
culture.
>
> Patrice
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tommer" <tommersl@...>
> To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 9:35 PM
> Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?
>
>
> >I agree with what you wrote, what I meant is a situation that
people
> > think that Jazz = Classical music played by not trained artists,
or
> > something like Jazz is a distortion of strict music (Classical),
or
> > that all significant ideas in music are contained in the Classical
> > music and Jazz added nothing to that.
> >
> > The more moderated approach of Classical music propogandists is
that
> > Jazz is "improvisation" on Classical music, and that was what
Morrison
> > (edited by Schuller) were talking about in the interview. Jazzing-
up
> > the Tin Pan Alley with drums and improvisations.
> > Tommer
>

Hi, all. I hope this doesn't fall outside the intended subject matter
for this group, but I'm searching for Nat King Cole/Lester Young
recording ... and looking for some guidance.

What I'm looking for is an early session .. I think around 1942 ...
that includes the songs "Indiana" and "Jammin' With Lester."  Nat is
playing piano.

I purchased a record of this session put out by Crown, an inexpensive
label, and my copy anyway is marred by a strange bass hum or rumble on
one side ... which makes it all but un-listenable. Making it more
strange, the vinyl otherwise appears to have been seldom, if ever,
played. It appears perfect.

Does anyone know anything about this session? Is it out there on vinyl
on another label? And is the rumble I'm hearing just Crown's cheap
vinyl, or is there a problem with the recording on this session generally?

Thanks!
John C.
Washington, D.C.

Hi John

The 1942 session (July 15th) included Indiana, I Can't Get Started, Tea for
Two and Body and Soul, all reissued on a Blue Note CD-set (The Complete
Aladdin Recordings of Lester Young) - a bit of surface noise anf distortion
indeed, but not what call rumble. If the takes you have include Barney
Kessel on guitar, they come from a later - and "cleaner" - session (Aug. 4
1952)... or maybe you have a combination of both, because there was no
"Jamming With Lester" recorded in 42.
I cannot help you much about vinyls, if that is what you are looking for.
Maybe a Google search would (I've just seen two fairly expensive second-hand
copies of a Musidisc LP called "Nat King Cole/Lester Young quintet",
including both numbers, on the French PriceMinister website). If you need
the trio, I suppose Aladdin would be the right keyword.

Good luck!

Patrice

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cochran" <johnmcochran@...>
To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 5:56 PM
Subject: [RedHotJazz] Nat King Cole and Lester Young


> Hi, all. I hope this doesn't fall outside the intended subject matter
> for this group, but I'm searching for Nat King Cole/Lester Young
> recording ... and looking for some guidance.
>
> What I'm looking for is an early session .. I think around 1942 ...
> that includes the songs "Indiana" and "Jammin' With Lester."  Nat is
> playing piano.
>
> I purchased a record of this session put out by Crown, an inexpensive
> label, and my copy anyway is marred by a strange bass hum or rumble on
> one side ... which makes it all but un-listenable. Making it more
> strange, the vinyl otherwise appears to have been seldom, if ever,
> played. It appears perfect.
>
> Does anyone know anything about this session? Is it out there on vinyl
> on another label? And is the rumble I'm hearing just Crown's cheap
> vinyl, or is there a problem with the recording on this session generally?
>
> Thanks!
> John C.
> Washington, D.C.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

I have an album of those two in my collection.I don't know where you are in this
world,but
   many years ago,there was a spate of low price department stores dotted
throughout  this
   country some forty-odd years ago.I grew up here in the Coos Bay-North
Bend,Oregon ar-
   ea and I saw many LPs that sold for under a dollar or less.One store I
remember being
   in and out of was an $.88 store in downtown Coos Bay back around 1962.There
was also
   a Sprouse-Reitz store in the same general area.They,too,sold inexpensive LPs.
        Many years later,I learned that many labels then used masters that were
originally
   issued on the Black and White and Musicraft labels from the mid-forties.The
quality of
   sound varied.You mentioned Crown Records.Crown came into existance after the
RPM
   and Modern labels folded in the early sixties.Modern-RPM issued alot of mid
1950s
   Rhythm and Blues/Rock and Roll singles by a spate of black artists.The late
Jesse B-
   elvin recorded for them(his biggest hit there was "Goodnight My Love" from
1956)and
   the black singer/pianist Hadda Brooks.Crown also had a number of Big Band Era
rec-
   reations some of which were quite good.My late friends guitarist Al
Hendrickson and
   alto and tenor saxophonist Skeets Herfurt were on a number of them.Crown
Records
   also issued alot of albums of organ music(ala Ken Griffin)plus music from
around the
   world,classical music albums and music with percussion showing off the new
stereo
   phenomina starting in the late '50s.The list of inexpensive albums were in the
dozens
   many using then selling or leasing masters as the aforementioned Black and
White
   and Musicraft sides.TOPS was a lable that used the 1946-50 Black and White
mast-
   ers.It was owned by Bob Shad.The Bihari brothers owned Modern-RPM.I hope this
   helps you.

John Cochran <johnmcochran@...> wrote:
           Hi, all. I hope this doesn't fall outside the intended subject matter
for this group, but I'm searching for Nat King Cole/Lester Young
recording ... and looking for some guidance.

What I'm looking for is an early session .. I think around 1942 ...
that includes the songs "Indiana" and "Jammin' With Lester." Nat is
playing piano.

I purchased a record of this session put out by Crown, an inexpensive
label, and my copy anyway is marred by a strange bass hum or rumble on
one side ... which makes it all but un-listenable. Making it more
strange, the vinyl otherwise appears to have been seldom, if ever,
played. It appears perfect.

Does anyone know anything about this session? Is it out there on vinyl
on another label? And is the rumble I'm hearing just Crown's cheap
vinyl, or is there a problem with the recording on this session generally?

Thanks!
John C.
Washington, D.C.






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Please let me return to this just one more time!
Alistair Cooke plainly stated that when he answered Jelly's query about his
origin, Jelly's reponse to the answer 'London' (by which Cooke meant London
England) was that he had been 'in that section' in '19 and 13'.
I cannot believe that Morton would have thought that Cooke was referring to a
small Californian town, but London Ontario is a sizeable community near the
Great Lakes and so could be a candidate if he did not mean London England.
If, however, London Ont is impossible and we discount the idea that Morton was
thinking of a small town in California (or elsewhere in the USA), either Cooke
is not accurately reporting what Morton said or Morton is offering an inaccurate
memory. As a reporter Cooke was not averse to hyperbole and factual
embellishment, and neither was Morton. I suppose we will never know what was
happening in the minds of either party to the discussion. Pity.
Any final comments?
Hugh


      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Albert Haim wrote:
> There are problems connecting to the music files in the site. I
> notified Scott.
>
> Albert

Fixed. Thanks Albert.

How sure are we that he didn't visit London Ontario, 1913-16?  Not
very, I think...  Jelly seems flexible with dates as a matter of show
business routine, or he may have forgotten the exact year.  We can
place Jelly often in Chicago, not so far from London Ontario, during
these years.

Much more speculative, but as Howard observed, one can't be certain
that Jelly didn't visit London England in 1913-14 (or perhaps even
1911-12...).

--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Hugh <hughphoric@...> wrote:
>
> Please let me return to this just one more time!
> Alistair Cooke plainly stated that when he answered Jelly's query
about his origin, Jelly's reponse to the answer 'London' (by which
Cooke meant London England) was that he had been 'in that section' in
'19 and 13'.
> I cannot believe that Morton would have thought that Cooke was
referring to a small Californian town, but London Ontario is a
sizeable community near the Great Lakes and so could be a candidate if
he did not mean London England.
> If, however, London Ont is impossible and we discount the idea that
Morton was thinking of a small town in California (or elsewhere in the
USA), either Cooke is not accurately reporting what Morton said or
Morton is offering an inaccurate memory. As a reporter Cooke was not
averse to hyperbole and factual embellishment, and neither was Morton.
I suppose we will never know what was happening in the minds of either
party to the discussion. Pity.
> Any final comments?
> Hugh

Yes, I once heard the Crown LP and recall a similar sound, agree it's
likely a result of Crown's pressing or transfer.  Lester's 1942 sides
with the Nat Cole Trio reappear on LP 'Nat "King" Cole Meets the
Master Saxes' (Spotlite, England).  These tracks seem to be a glaring
omission from Rust's 'Jazz Records.'

If you wish to settle for CD, there's 'Lester Young/Nat "King" Cole -
complete recordings' (Definitive, Andorra), 15 tracks including
"Lester Leaps In" from a 1946 radio transcription.

--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "John Cochran" <johnmcochran@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, all. I hope this doesn't fall outside the intended subject matter
> for this group, but I'm searching for Nat King Cole/Lester Young
> recording ... and looking for some guidance.
>
> What I'm looking for is an early session .. I think around 1942 ...
> that includes the songs "Indiana" and "Jammin' With Lester."  Nat is
> playing piano.
>
> I purchased a record of this session put out by Crown, an inexpensive
> label, and my copy anyway is marred by a strange bass hum or rumble on
> one side ... which makes it all but un-listenable. Making it more
> strange, the vinyl otherwise appears to have been seldom, if ever,
> played. It appears perfect.
>
> Does anyone know anything about this session? Is it out there on vinyl
> on another label? And is the rumble I'm hearing just Crown's cheap
> vinyl, or is there a problem with the recording on this session
generally?
>
> Thanks!
> John C.
> Washington, D.C.
>

The Definitive label has the "complete" Lester
Young-Nat Cole recordings with the cuts you want. I've
several versions of them, and none has the bass rumble
that you have identified....

Michael Ullman

Michael Ullman
136 Woodward St.
Newton, Mass. 02461
617-964-6994
cell--617-429-5611


      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

In Jelly Roll Morton lexicon section means mostly a restricted unique
small place.

Search for the word "section" in the following:
http://www.doctorjazz.co.uk/locspeech1.html
http://www.doctorjazz.co.uk/locspeech2.html
Tommer


-- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "spacelights" <spacelights@...>
wrote:
>
> How sure are we that he didn't visit London Ontario, 1913-16?  Not
> very, I think...  Jelly seems flexible with dates as a matter of
show
> business routine, or he may have forgotten the exact year.  We can
> place Jelly often in Chicago, not so far from London Ontario, during
> these years.
>
> Much more speculative, but as Howard observed, one can't be certain
> that Jelly didn't visit London England in 1913-14 (or perhaps even
> 1911-12...).
>
> --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Hugh <hughphoric@> wrote:
> >
> > Please let me return to this just one more time!
> > Alistair Cooke plainly stated that when he answered Jelly's query
> about his origin, Jelly's reponse to the answer 'London' (by which
> Cooke meant London England) was that he had been 'in that section'
in
> '19 and 13'.
> > I cannot believe that Morton would have thought that Cooke was
> referring to a small Californian town, but London Ontario is a
> sizeable community near the Great Lakes and so could be a candidate
if
> he did not mean London England.
> > If, however, London Ont is impossible and we discount the idea
that
> Morton was thinking of a small town in California (or elsewhere in
the
> USA), either Cooke is not accurately reporting what Morton said or
> Morton is offering an inaccurate memory. As a reporter Cooke was not
> averse to hyperbole and factual embellishment, and neither was
Morton.
> I suppose we will never know what was happening in the minds of
either
> party to the discussion. Pity.
> > Any final comments?
> > Hugh
>

Dear list

I am trying to sort out all the LP reissues of recordings by pianist
Luckey Roberts.

Could someone give additional information (confirmation of catalog
number and issue title, release date [copyright/print date], complete
track listing including performances by other artists) on the
following LPs that include Luckey Roberts tracks?

-"Rent Party Piano" (RPP 1002), that reportedly includes all the May
21, 1946 Circle recordings. See cover on
http://picasaweb.google.es/ekebbbapg/RobertsLuckey/photo#5168106105545
559026

-"Pork And Beans" (Herwin H-403), that reportedly includes just "Pork
and Beans" and "Shy And Sly" from that Circle session. See cover on
http://picasaweb.google.es/ekebbbapg/RobertsLuckey/photo#5185110487391
228050

-(Franklin Mint 77), that reportedly includes just "Railroad Blues"
from that Circle session

-(London HB-I1057), that reportedly includes "Railroad
Blues", "Ripples Of The Nile", "Pork And Beans" and "Shy And Sly"
from that Circle session


Thanks in advance!

Agustín Pérez
Madrid (Spain)
ekebbbapg@...

I am presently reading and, for the most part, enjoying Sam Charters'
new book, A Trumpet Around the Corner: the Story of New Orleans Jazz,
but I wonder why University of Mississippi has allowed him to get away
without fully citing his sources? The book contains a bibliography and
an appendix giving page references where Charters has quoted directly
from another author, but statements of fact and anecdotes are left
without any source for the reader to check or to follow up. Strange…
Has anyone else out there read this book?
Robert Greenwood.

The Charters Trumpet is still not around the corner down here, hopefully it
will summon us to muster shortly.
I suspect that the nature of the criticisms levelled levelled at Charters'
previous endeavours may again surface, but I beseech all to stand back and
contemplate, and acknowledge, the man's enormous contributions to our
music - to the music of New Orleans, to our appreciation of the country
blues, and even to ragtime. The book, the recordings, the LP compilations -
they charted the musical development and appreciation of thousands of eager
learners.
This still eager learner looks forward to seeing what's around the trumpet's
corner.
Tony Standish

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Greenwood" <robertgreenwood_54uk@...>
To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: [RedHotJazz] A Trumpet Around the Corner


I am presently reading and, for the most part, enjoying Sam Charters'
new book, A Trumpet Around the Corner: the Story of New Orleans Jazz,
but I wonder why University of Mississippi has allowed him to get away
without fully citing his sources? The book contains a bibliography and
an appendix giving page references where Charters has quoted directly
from another author, but statements of fact and anecdotes are left
without any source for the reader to check or to follow up. Strange.
Has anyone else out there read this book?
Robert Greenwood.



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

I quite agree with everything you say about Charters, Tony. His book
Jazz: New Orleans was a pioneering work and has always been one of my
favourite books. It was essential reading for me when I was still
learning about this music; not that I am not still learning. It just
seems a shame to me that the new book contains no references apart
from the bibliography for the reader to follow up for him/herself.
The book I would really like to see Charters write is one where he
gives his own account of New Orleans in the 1950s. I had hoped that
his book New Orleans: Playing a Jazz Chorus (fine as it is) would be
that book. GHB in their American Music series have brought out a few
of the sessions he recorded, including ones by the Eureka Brass Band,
Israel Gorman, Kid Thomas, and Isaiah Morgan. His sleevenotes make
fascinating reading and I guess we will have to make do with them for
the time being.

Robert G.

--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Standish" <mojohand@...>
wrote:
>
> The Charters Trumpet is still not around the corner down here,
hopefully it
> will summon us to muster shortly.
> I suspect that the nature of the criticisms levelled levelled at
Charters'
> previous endeavours may again surface, but I beseech all to stand
back and
> contemplate, and acknowledge, the man's enormous contributions to
our
> music - to the music of New Orleans, to our appreciation of the
country
> blues, and even to ragtime. The book, the recordings, the LP
compilations -
> they charted the musical development and appreciation of thousands
of eager
> learners.
> This still eager learner looks forward to seeing what's around the
trumpet's
> corner.
> Tony Standish
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Greenwood" <robertgreenwood_54uk@...>
> To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:44 PM
> Subject: [RedHotJazz] A Trumpet Around the Corner
>
>
> I am presently reading and, for the most part, enjoying Sam
Charters'
> new book, A Trumpet Around the Corner: the Story of New Orleans
Jazz,
> but I wonder why University of Mississippi has allowed him to get
away
> without fully citing his sources? The book contains a bibliography
and
> an appendix giving page references where Charters has quoted
directly
> from another author, but statements of fact and anecdotes are left
> without any source for the reader to check or to follow up. Strange.
> Has anyone else out there read this book?
> Robert Greenwood.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

I am surprised to see no postings to this list following the death of
Humphrey Lyttelton, a major figure in the European wing of the post-war
revival. Rarely has any European trumpeter played in this idiom with
such flair, authority, and, at times, beauty. His approach to the music
was always exploratory and intelligent. The recordings made in 1952
under the name of the Lyttelton/Grant Paseo Orchestra show, for
instance, an early (and then uncommon) awareness of the connection
between New Orleans music and the music of the Caribbean Islands.
Furthermore, his two-volume work The Best of Jazz, exploring the jazz
of the 1920s and the 1930s through some of the landmark recordings of
that era, is excellent and essential reading.

Robert G.

Hi Robert & All!

   Below I hope to cut and paste successfully an article that was posted to the
different group a few days ago regarding Humphrey Lyttleton's death.  Unless
contained in the article, no source was cited.

   Two cents from
   Bob Blackard

   PS:  I see a picture didn't copy.

   Humphrey Lyttelton: Obituary
   Trumpeter and bandleader who bestrode the British jazz scene for more than
half a century and later became the chairman of ‘I’m Sorry I Haven’t a
Clue’



   Getty
   Lyttelton pictured at the Radio Show, Earl's Court, London, 11 September 1957
       enlarge
   Top of Form 1
   Bottom of Form 1
   Friday, 25 April 2008
   Humphrey Lyttelton excelled at everything that he chose to do. He was a
trumpeter, bandleader, calligrapher, cartoonist, writer, journalist and
broadcaster. Well, not quite everything. He admitted to being no good at
ice-skating, but attributed his lack of success to the failure of anyone to make
size 13½ skating boots to suit his feet.
   His career began when he gained fame for his declamatory trumpet style and he
ended up contributing more to the British jazz scene than anyone else,
bestriding it for more than half a century. His unique humour permeated a long
radio career which was capped by his chairmanship of the Radio 4 panel game
I’m Sorry I Haven’t a Clue, where he became exalted for the finest dead-pan
in radio since Jack Benny.
   Lyttelton came from a respected family, filled with eccentrics, that had
distinguished itself over the centuries. It was, he said, “a long line of
land-owning, political, military, clerical, scholastic and literary forebears.
Not a musician amongst them”. His ancestor Humphrey Littleton was notorious
for having been, after an atypically bad career move, hanged, drawn and
quartered for his part in the Gunpowder Plot.
   Lyttelton liked to claim that Littleton was subsequently buried in Sussex,
Surrey, Hampshire and Buckinghamshire. Sadly, or perhaps happily, the account of
the original Humphrey’s fate has subsequently been discredited. Lyttelton was
born and educated in Eton College, where his father George was an illustrious
housemaster.
   “My father often said that his decision to call me Humphrey – a name
eschewed in the family since my namesake let the side down in the 17th century
– was regarded by my grandparents as a rather perverse joke. But it later
emerged that there had been more than one. The 17th century was actually
peppered with Humphrey Littletons.”
   When the family attended the Eton and Harrow cricket match at Lord’s in
1936, the 15-year-old Humphrey and his mother slipped away from the game to the
Charing Cross Road and bought the boy his first trumpet. His interest in jazz
had begun a few years before and, though an early failure at piano lessons,
Humphrey already had a “band” at Eton, which he led on mouth organ.
   The change to trumpet was a matter of moment. He already worshipped the
playing of Louis Armstrong and one of the first records he loved was
Armstrong’s “Basin Street Blues”: “I had discovered that the chorus of
‘Basin Street Blues’ can be played, without too much drastic alteration, on
the bottom three notes of the scale of C. So we played ‘Basin Street Blues’
for a week or two. As my trumpeting became more ambitious we added new tunes –
of four, five and even six notes – until I began to acquire some fluency.”
   Humphrey Lyttelton’s first interest had been in military band music and at
Eton he had been surrounded by it, with the Guards stationed nearby at Windsor
and the Eton Officers’ Training Corps regularly marching up and down behind a
band. The boy took lessons in military drumming from an ex-Coldstream Guards
drum major and was soon appearing as a percussionist at school concerts. His
early gift for cartooning also took him to the school stage drawing “Lightning
Caricatures”.
   On 6 June 1941 Lyttelton enlisted in the Brigade of Guards at Caterham and
took his commission at Sandhurst. He landed on the beach at Salerno as a signals
officer with a pistol in one hand and his trumpet in the other. He saw some
savage fighting before being invalided first to Africa and finally home. He
travelled to London for the celebrations on VE Day where he was pushed about in
front of Buckingham Palace in a wheelbarrow whilst playing his trumpet. His
inelegant blaring on “Roll Out The Barrel” can be faintly heard through the
crowd on the BBC recordings of the event.
   He finally broke with family tradition in 1946. “When I got out of the army
I was 25 and didn’t feel like going back to anything very academic, so I went
to Camberwell School of Art for a couple of years and round about the same time
started playing jazz in various low dives,” he recalled. “I’m sure there
was a buzz in the family going round about me, but I was oblivious, sloping off
to places like the Nuthouse on Regent Street with my trumpet and a dirty mac
over my uniform.”He soon found the required subjects at the School of Art
tiresome and concentrated on the comic drawings that came so naturally to him.
But his devotion to the trumpet grew ever stronger.
   Wearing his army battledress, now dyed navy-blue, and sporting a beard and
sandals, he played at jam sessions with professional dance-band musicians and
began to travel to the Red Barn, a pub in Bexley in Kent, where the pianist
George Webb’s band played every Monday night.
   “The music played by the George Webb Dixielanders was rough and ready, and
by the best standards today it was undoubtedly primitive,” he recalled. “Yet
it had the spirit of real jazz, which was lacking from the music of the
professional dance musicians.” Lyttleton joined the Webb band in March 1947,
cementing a life-long friendship and musical partnership with its clarinet
player, Wally Fawkes, himself a brilliant cartoonist who worked under the name
of “Trog”.
   Fawkes was employed by the Daily Mail to draw column-breakers, humorous or
decorative drawings that were inserted in the text. When the paper promoted him
to produce a full-size strip cartoon, Lyttelton inherited the column-breakers
job and, working under the name of “Humph”, was eventually put on the staff.
When the demand for cartoons slackened he reviewed jazz and eventually, after
having invested in the six volumes of Grove’s Dictionary, classical records,
for the paper.
   The paper eventually divested itself of the reviews as being “frivolous”
and Lyttelton took on the job of providing the storyline for a strip cartoon
that chronicled the adventures of a small animal called “Flook”, which was
already being drawn by Fawkes. This job lasted until 1953.
   Lyttelton left the Webb band and formed his own band in January 1948, taking
Fawkes and eventually Webb himself with him. The following month Lyttelton
joined briefly Derek Neville’s band to appear at the Nice Jazz Festival,
where, for the first time, he was able to hear Louis Armstrong and to play with
some leading American jazz musicians like Jack Teagarden, Earl Hines and Rex
Stewart. A year later the classic front-line of the new Lyttelton band was
completed by the arrival of two brothers from Blackpool, Keith and Ian Christie,
who played trombone and clarinet respectively, and the group soon became famous
as Europe’s leading traditional jazz band.
   “It seems incredible now that we used to play the Royal Festival Hall, just
with my band, and sell out within hours of the box office opening,” said
Lyttelton.“The first time I really grasped the full extent of my own
notoriety,” he wrote in the austere days of meat rationing, “was when I
heard that my cousin Charles, 10th Viscount Cobham and lord of Hagley Hall in
Worcestershire, had received an under-the-counter portion of steak in a
Birmingham restaurant on the strength of being Humphrey Lyttelton’s first
cousin.”
   In late 1947, the Graeme Bell band, a group of itinerant Australians, came to
Europe to look for work. They came to Britain on their way home in early 1948
and stayed for some time. Their music was less hidebound than the British jazz.
They used popular songs from outside the jazz repertoire and, to the horror of
the local jazz buffs, encouraged dancing to their music in the jazz clubs.
Lyttelton found a musical soul-mate in Bell and the bands not only worked
together but the Australians, with typical antipodean informality, moved
uninvited into Lyttelton’s home. “I had Australians the way other people had
mice,” he said.
   Keith Christie was the first of a long line of musical giants who matured in
the ranks of the Lyttelton band. It also included the saxophonists Tony Coe,
Danny Moss, Alan Barnes, Joe Temperley, John Barnes and Karen Sharp, the
trombonists Roy Williams, Pete Strange and John Picard and similar lists of
pianists, bass players and drummers. Lyttelton treated his musicians well and
showed them great loyalty.
   As his music moved ahead and outgrew some of them, they left on good terms and
returned often as guests. He also welcomed established veteran musicians like
Kathy Stobart and Jimmy Hastings into his ranks.After recording for several
small companies the band was granted a recording session by the major Parlophone
label in November 1949. The resultant 78rpm records, in the label’s “Super
Rhythm Style” series, sold so well that a new one was issued each month from
then until the advent of the long-playing record a few years later.
   The multitude of records the band made for Parlophone remain classics and they
sound fresh to this day, with the sublime partnership of Lyttelton and Fawkes
presenting a jazz parallel to that of Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres in
Liverpool’s football team.
   In 1949, despite a ban on American jazz musicians playing in Britain, the jazz
giant Sidney Bechet, accompanied by the Lyttelton band, played at a London
concert and subsequent recording session for the Melodisc label. The line-up
persisted for some time until 1951 when the two Christies left to form the
Christie Brothers Stompers. From that point onwards Lyttelton himself took up
the clarinet and began a gradual movement from traditional jazz to the
mainstream style.
   “People wrote in and accused us of going commercial when we wore uniforms
for the first time rather than moth-eaten turtle-necked sweaters.”The alto
player Bruce Turner joined the band in 1955, bringing in the first saxophone to
the front line and giving outrage to the “purist” traditionalists upon whom
the instrument had the same effect as a crucifix on a vampire. At a concert in
Birmingham Town Hall they waved a banner emblazoned “Go Home Dirty Bopper”.
“I got fed up with continually being accused of being a traitor, so I just
left the whole trad thing behind,” said Lyttelton.
   In 1956 his simple riff composition “Bad Penny Blues” became the first
jazz record to reach the Top 20. “It climbed to number 19 and then fell back
exhausted,” he said. Early on Lyttelton’s skills as a composer became
apparent. He wrote well over 200 tunes and was never given proper recognition
for this substantial one of his talents.
   The band made trips throughout Europe, the Middle East and, in 1959, the
United States, where it toured with Thelonious Monk and Anita O’Day and was
welcomed with enthusiastic reviews by the New York critics. The British Council
sponsored several of the trips.
   Lyttelton was now successful enough to begin bringing over American stars to
work with his band. They included the gospel singer Marie Knight, blues singers
Jimmy Rushing and Joe Turner, tenor man Buddy Tate and trumpeter Buck Clayton.
Several were ex-Count Basie musicians, and Lyttelton established a special
affinity with Clayton, who made several tours and recordings with the band. The
two men became close personal friends and on-stage rivals in trumpet battles.
   Although the band never had a regular vocalist, Lyttelton toured with several
singers from time to time, including Neva Raphaello, Elkie Brooks, Helen Shapiro
and Stacey Kent, all of whom recorded with the band. In 1977 Lyttelton toured as
a soloist in the “Salute to Satchmo” package and appeared as a guest with
the Alex Welsh band when the show toured Australia.
   A spell as the writer of the restaurant guide for Harpers & Queen caused him
much unease. “I was never a proper gourmet. I’d come home starving after
travelling on a gig with the band and go straight to the kitchen where I’d
mash up powdered potato and fish fingers and scoff it, all the time looking
guiltily over my shoulder in case someone should see me.
   ”Unlikely, since Lyttelton, obsessive about his privacy, had built his house
in Barnet, Hertfordshire, around a square. The outside walls were blank and the
windows faced into the square. No one was supposed to know his home telephone
number. At one stage in the late Fifties I rang him on it and he immediately had
the number changed. Some years later he explained to me why he liked to use
other means of communication. “If you phone me it means that you’ve decided
that what you want to talk to me about is more important than what I’m doing
at the time. I’d rather keep that decision to myself.”
   No matter, for the masterpieces of calligraphy that popped regularly through
my letterbox were compensation enough. I was saddened when, much later, our
correspondence switched to the more facile but less momentous e-mail and indeed,
when he outgrew his grumpy bear stage and became a delightful old buffer, we
were all allowed to make free with his mobile phone number.
   Lyttelton was famously reticent and guarded about his personal life. One asked
at one’s peril if he had ever been approached to accept an honour (he had, by
Prime Ministers Callaghan and Major but turned them both down). In 2007, when an
edition of The South Bank Show was devoted to him, it was absorbing and
colourful but as always it contained little detail about him and less about his
family.
   His many books, like his radio programmes, have, amongst everything else,
explained jazz to the non-musical listener. They include I Play as I Please
(1954), Second Chorus (1958), Take It From the Top (1975), The Best of Jazz 1
(1978), The Best of Jazz 2 (1981), Why No Beethoven (1984) and It Just Occurred
to Me. . . (2006). Honorary doctorates in were awarded from the universities of
Warwick (1987), Loughborough (1988), Durham (1989), Keele (1992), Hertford
(1995) and de Montfort (1997).
   In 1983 he formed his own record label, Calligraph, and commissioned
recordings from many of his musical associates, British and American. He
continued to record his own bands whilst rounding up as many as he could of his
early recordings for reissue on the new label. The Parlophones from the Forties
and Fifties form the diadem of the catalogue, providing relief to collectors who
had sought complete collections and great pleasure to younger followers who
enjoyed them for the first time. During the Fifties Lyttelton was BBC Radio’s
main jazz presenter and he broke new ground when he compered BBC 2’s Jazz 625,
a remarkably consistent series featuring the best American jazz musicians of the
time. He was the leading light on Radio 2’s Jazz Score, a panel game that also
featured George Melly and guests including a newly eloquent Acker Bilk.
   “I wasn’t fond of doing that programme,” Lyttelton said. “In the quite
early stage I discovered that they gave every contestant the answers to the
questions in advance except me, believing that I knew too much about jazz and
that it wasn’t fair. The result was that all the other members of the panel
were able to come up with carefully prepared or plagiarised stories, while I was
left to say something amusing about Fud Livingston or Jimmy Giuffre in a
moment’s notice. I wonder if anyone knows anything amusing about Jimmy
Giuffre.”
   His Radio 4 programme The Best of Jazz began in 1967 and ran continuously for
more than 40 years, guiding and profoundly influencing the musical tastes of his
listeners, most of whom had been listening to him for half their lives. He had
the same producers, Keith Stewart and Terry Carter, consecutively throughout
that time.
   In the early days with Stewart the BBC atmosphere was more congenial and the
programme flourished happily. But Lyttelton was frustrated by the non-jazz
trails that he was later forced by the system to make room for each week. He
first cut the broadcasts to two 12-week series a year and earlier this year
decided to give them up altogether.
   It was in 1972 that, against his better judgement, he took on the chairmanship
of Radio Four’s I’m Sorry I Haven’t a Clue. Nobody imagined that his role,
somewhat like a naĂŻve and despairing schoolmaster who was forced to read out
double entendres that he never understood, would last for the rest of his life.
His sharp humour was hilarious and yet without malice.
   Ian Pattinson wrote his scripts for him, but they came alive only with the
application of Lyttelton’s superb deadpan and his perfect timing. I’m Sorry
I Haven’t a Clue went touring Britain, playing to vast, sell-out audiences,
with one London date having an audience of more than three thousand.
   “Nowadays when people say to me ‘I enjoy your show’, they’re more
likely to mean I’m Sorry I Haven’t a Clue than the Monday night record
programme that I’ve presented for so many years,” he said. “If it wasn’t
for the fact that I took out my trumpet and played at the end of each gig,
thousands of people would have thought of me as the chairman of I’m Sorry I
Haven’t a Clue without knowing that I was a trumpet player.”
   He professed to be eternally harassed by the members of the team. “If you
hear this noise,” he said at one recording whilst waving a hooter, “it means
I’ve lost the will to live.” But the years dropped away from him when he was
on air or leading his band. When my daughter moved to live in Barnet he wrote,
“If she’s in or near High Barnet, she may well see me one day in Waitrose
– I’m the stooping, shuffling human wreck clearly wishing he was dead.
That’s what shopping does to me. When people say to me, as they often do,
‘Can I ask you a personal question – how old are you?’ I answer ‘Forty
on a bandstand, 120 in Waitrose.’”
   In 2002 he played with Radiohead before a crowd of 50,000 and also appeared on
one of the band’s records. He continued to develop his band, bringing in new
talent like the saxophonists Karen Sharp, Robert Fowler and Jo Fooks, and to
tour and record new albums.
   The continuing success of I’m Sorry I Haven’t a Clue and his devotion to
the band meant that he had little free time. What he had he devoted to his
writing, latterly working on a book on calligraphy, which, along with bird
watching, was a lifelong hobby. The book was to be called “Delivered By
Hand”. “It’s written from the shop floor, so to speak,” he said, “from
the point of view of someone who enjoys the hobby and is still learning.” The
book will include many pieces from his collection of italic writing. He had been
elected President of the Society for Italic Handwriting in 1990.
   When I told him that I was preparing his obituary in advance, with typical
generosity, since he was at the time writing yet another book and arranging the
recording of more new CDs for his band, he agreed to help me with it. I read
some of it out over the phone to him. “I do wish I could be there to read it
when it’s published,” he said wistfully.
   Steve Voce
   Humphrey Richard Adeane Lyttelton, trumpeter, clarinettist, bandleader,
broadcaster, writer, journalist and calligrapher: born Eton, Berkshire 23 May
1921; cartoonist, Daily Mail 1949-53; chairman, I’m Sorry I Haven’t Clue
1972-2008; married 1948 Pat Braithwaite (one daughter; marriage dissolved 1952),
1952 Jill Richardson (died 2006; two sons, one daughter); died Barnet,
Hertfordshire 25 April 2008.


Robert Greenwood <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote:
           I am surprised to see no postings to this list following the death of
Humphrey Lyttelton, a major figure in the European wing of the post-war
revival. Rarely has any European trumpeter played in this idiom with
such flair, authority, and, at times, beauty. His approach to the music
was always exploratory and intelligent. The recordings made in 1952
under the name of the Lyttelton/Grant Paseo Orchestra show, for
instance, an early (and then uncommon) awareness of the connection
between New Orleans music and the music of the Caribbean Islands.
Furthermore, his two-volume work The Best of Jazz, exploring the jazz
of the 1920s and the 1930s through some of the landmark recordings of
that era, is excellent and essential reading.

Robert G.






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for posting that, Bob. Humph achieved the distinction this Monday of a
Guardian
obituary written by someone (G. Melly) who predeceased him. There was also a
nice article in
the Observer written by Melvyn Bragg which, apart from one howler, is rather
good.

Robert G.

i joined this group some time ago- and things happened never came to
visit again

val salata or vladamir  salata was my uncle. he died in france just
after ww11  the circumstances were never really explained. he either
jumped from a two story window- or was pushed- we will never know

but on to his music

he played with all the usual  of his time, teagarden, i know for sure

mamaybe the dorsey brothers and for a time had his own band.
i know he played in las vegas too, the frontier?

i found a picture of him some time ago on the web- so their must be
music somewhere

he was a trained classical pianst, but prefered boogie woogie over
anything and he played the trumpet

has any one heard of him?

to find his music would  be so great-


regards to all

bernice