Michael
Interesting. Toad precludes much serious thought at the moment.
N.O.music was functional. Dances, funerals, parades. Musicians played for
the audience, for the moment. The idea of sitting round a mike to record for
posterity would have been alien.The demands of 'the Man' would have added to
the unreality. So this would really be a double constraint to a satisfactory
performance and it's surpringing that so much of it is so good.
The sublime Kid Thomas Valentine, despite the many latter years of
Preservation Hall, Clubs and Concerts never could stand to play with
'stuffed dummies' staring at him he wanted the people to get up and dance.
No I don't know the Prof. either but I sure would like to.
Can you help Howard ?
Dave
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dave is absolutely right. When Bunk and the band first played at the
Stuyvesant Casino in New York in 1945 they thought that no-one liked
them because no-one from the audience got up to dance. This must have
been the first time they had played for "jazz fans".
on 29/6/05 10:22, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:
> By the way, what are Professor Hull's Anthems mentioned by Howard Rye? I must
> confess complete ignorance.
Eight titles recorded for Decca 3 July 1936 (two trumpets, trombone,
clarinet, alto sax, piano, guitar accompanying Hull's gospel vocals)
Only four issued at the time (Decca 7108, 7128) but all eight can be heard
on Document DOCD5326 Singin' The Gospel 1933-1936.
As far as I know, nothing is actually known about their provenance, Decca's
files being unavailable to researchers (but very likely uninformative
anyway). At various times all the usual New Orleans suspects have been
suggested for various roles. As far as I'm concerned, pending evidence,
"unknown" will do just fine.
In passing, evidence of a New Orleans variant of swing is not lacking. Quite
apart from the Robichaux recordings (regarded by some as the first R & B
recordings!) there are the private recordings by Kid Howard, Andy Anderson
and Duke Derbigny which are currently on Prelude To the Revival, Vol. 1
(American Music AMCD40).
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
I have just phoned Red Lick and that particular Document CD is now out
of the catalogue. Thanks, anyway, Howard.
On the subject of swing influences on NO music, is anybody out there
familiar with the superb Barnes/Bocage Big 5 session recorded in 1954
at no less a place than the hallowed San Jacinto Hall in NO, location
of the 1944 Bunk Johnson American Musics? This features Emile Barnes on
clarinet, Pete Bocage on trumpet, Eddie Dawson on bass, Albert Jiles on
drums, and Homer Eugene playing electric guitar in a manner that
suggests he had listened to Charlie Christian more than just in
passing. The traddies and the revivalists are everywhere contradicted
by any prolonged contact with any music actually recorded in NO. That's
probably why most of them steer clear of it and prefer the European
product. But that's another subject and maybe another thread.
Incidentally, one of my favourite stories is recounted in Sam Charters'
book on New Orleans. Pete Bocage in the 20s was in NY with the Armand
Piron Orchestra (and there's another thread). While he was up there he
heard Phil Napoleon recording with the Original Memphis Five. Ever
afterwards he would name Napoleon among his favourite trumpeters. I
wonder if Sudhalter knows that story?
on 29/6/05 11:45, robertgreenwood_54uk at robertgreenwood_54uk@...
wrote:
> I have just phoned Red Lick and that particular Document CD is now out
> of the catalogue. Thanks, anyway, Howard.
Pity. I dare say they will reinstate it eventually, not least because one of
the best is included in Document Short Cuts Vol. 3 (DOSCD9003) which I only
know because I reviewed it for Blues & Rhythm.
It's even possibly worth lobbying them.
> On the subject of swing influences on NO music, is anybody out there
> familiar with the superb Barnes/Bocage Big 5 session recorded in 1954
> at no less a place than the hallowed San Jacinto Hall in NO, location
> of the 1944 Bunk Johnson American Musics? This features Emile Barnes on
> clarinet, Pete Bocage on trumpet, Eddie Dawson on bass, Albert Jiles on
> drums, and Homer Eugene playing electric guitar in a manner that
> suggests he had listened to Charlie Christian more than just in
> passing.
Yes, I am familiar with it, but why would this interest anyone else?!! More
useful is the information that this superb session is American Music AMCD84.
Get it or your toes will drop off.
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
Well, what I asked was: Is ANYBODY familiar with this superb session?
It's a sort of roundabout way of drawing attention to it. Thanks for
giving out the CD number, Howard. My toes are still intact so I must
have bought it long ago.
Optimism prevailing over experience, this lunchtime I even called
into the Oxford Street branch of HMV to look for the Document. "No,
it's out of the catalogue, and we've never had it in stock." Now
there's a surprise!
-
-- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@c...> wrote:
> on 29/6/05 11:45, robertgreenwood_54uk at robertgreenwood_54uk@y...
> wrote:
>
> > I have just phoned Red Lick and that particular Document CD is
now out
> > of the catalogue. Thanks, anyway, Howard.
>
> Pity. I dare say they will reinstate it eventually, not least
because one of
> the best is included in Document Short Cuts Vol. 3 (DOSCD9003)
which I only
> know because I reviewed it for Blues & Rhythm.
>
> It's even possibly worth lobbying them.
>
>
> > On the subject of swing influences on NO music, is anybody out
there
> > familiar with the superb Barnes/Bocage Big 5 session recorded in
1954
> > at no less a place than the hallowed San Jacinto Hall in NO,
location
> > of the 1944 Bunk Johnson American Musics? This features Emile
Barnes on
> > clarinet, Pete Bocage on trumpet, Eddie Dawson on bass, Albert
Jiles on
> > drums, and Homer Eugene playing electric guitar in a manner that
> > suggests he had listened to Charlie Christian more than just in
> > passing.
>
> Yes, I am familiar with it, but why would this interest anyone
else?!! More
> useful is the information that this superb session is American
Music AMCD84.
> Get it or your toes will drop off.
>
>
>
>
>
> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
> howard@c...
> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
It is still listed on Document's web site at the (bargain) price of 8 pounds. If
there's a run and they do sell out, they owe Howard a commission.
The reduction suggests that they have the intention of reissuing it, probably
with a better booklet (design-wise) and maybe remastered.
Best wishes,
Michael
RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 29.06.05 14:10:48:
>
> Well, what I asked was: Is ANYBODY familiar with this superb session?
> It's a sort of roundabout way of drawing attention to it. Thanks for
> giving out the CD number, Howard. My toes are still intact so I must
> have bought it long ago.
> Optimism prevailing over experience, this lunchtime I even called
> into the Oxford Street branch of HMV to look for the Document. "No,
> it's out of the catalogue, and we've never had it in stock." Now
> there's a surprise!
>
> -
> -- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@c...> wrote:
> > on 29/6/05 11:45, robertgreenwood_54uk at robertgreenwood_54uk@y...
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I have just phoned Red Lick and that particular Document CD is
> now out
> > > of the catalogue. Thanks, anyway, Howard.
> >
> > Pity. I dare say they will reinstate it eventually, not least
> because one of
> > the best is included in Document Short Cuts Vol. 3 (DOSCD9003)
> which I only
> > know because I reviewed it for Blues & Rhythm.
> >
> > It's even possibly worth lobbying them.
> >
> >
> > > On the subject of swing influences on NO music, is anybody out
> there
> > > familiar with the superb Barnes/Bocage Big 5 session recorded in
> 1954
> > > at no less a place than the hallowed San Jacinto Hall in NO,
> location
> > > of the 1944 Bunk Johnson American Musics? This features Emile
> Barnes on
> > > clarinet, Pete Bocage on trumpet, Eddie Dawson on bass, Albert
> Jiles on
> > > drums, and Homer Eugene playing electric guitar in a manner that
> > > suggests he had listened to Charlie Christian more than just in
> > > passing.
> >
> > Yes, I am familiar with it, but why would this interest anyone
> else?!! More
> > useful is the information that this superb session is American
> Music AMCD84.
> > Get it or your toes will drop off.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
> > howard@c...
> > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________
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I have just this minute got off the telephone to Document up in Newton
Stewart. Apart from the one I have just ordered from them, they still
have about a dozen copies of this CD left on their shelves. BUY BUY BUY!
Well done Michael.
The Barnes Bocage is relevant and extremely interesting because although
1954 it maybe allows a glimpse of pre-revival N.O. or even the way one area
of music would have developed without a revival. Although it brings together
musicians from different generations ( or half-generations, I think Eugene
was born around 1914, anyone confirm ) and includes the totally
'inauthentic', to purists, e-gtr, the repertoire is pre-revival i.e.
non-'classic' . Eugene played e-guitar with Lucky Millender so brings
experience from the 'mainstream' of American popular music. From this
evidence he is a very good guitarist however, to make a living on Bourbon
Street and elsewhere, he turned into a pretty unastounding and derivative
trombone player. This suggests the perversions wrought upon music in N.O. by
the revival and subsequent 'Bourbon Street Industry'. Paradoxically, he is
on trombone on the Bocage Creole Serenaders Riversides of 1961, music of
similar feel and quality, but there is an e-gtr also, played by Sidney
Pflueger.
Well done also Rob, in bringing this still obscure session to greater
attention. If anybody is listening. This is , I think, what we are here for,
to share our knowledge and enthusiasm for the music. Myself, I'm all for
folks telling me what they like. More please. But I want to know also why
they like it.
___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
I don't know about Homer Eugene's trombone playing being "unastounding
and derivative." He certainly plays some very nice trombone on the
recordings by Pete Bocage's Creole Serenaders that you mention. You are
not confusing him with his brother, Wendell Eugene, are you? Pfleuger
plays strictly rhythm guitar on the Riverside; the guitarist on the
American Music (originally issued on MONO) is Emmanuel Sayles.
Rob
Two threads emerge I think. The first, N.O. revival trombone style. I have
listened again to Homer on both the Riverside and the Mono. Although it is
possible I could confuse him with his brother, as I can't find any Wendell
in my collection, it is unlikely that I have. 'Unastounding' and
'derivative' I maintain. I did not say he wasn't 'nice'. Do you claim that
he is either astounding or original or both ?
My research now indicates that he also played trombone with Millinder. I
suggest his style on the Bocages is similar to that of another ex-Big Band
trombonist, Louis Nelson, not that I am suggesting imitation. Nelson,
omni-present though he is in the revival seldom convinces me of a genuine
commitment to this music. He learned to play in this style and limited
himself thereto and thereby. I hear the same in Homer. To me, Jim was the
only major trombone stylist in post-war N.O. I do accept that there were
other decent players particularly the brass band men, playing their figures.
The similar styles of Nelson & Homer are not however similar to Jim. So I
ask you, expert in this area, from where this secondary N.O. trombone style
emerged ?
The second thread is gtr/e.gtr/banjo in the revival. Am I correct in
thinking that before Bill Russell arrived in N.O. the banjo was defunct ?
Sayles and Homer certainly played e.gtr as well as gtr. Marrero also I think
wanted to record on e.gtr but the man would not let him. What about Guesnon
? Is the banjo bound clunk clink of so much Revivalism Worldwide therefore
to be laid solely on the doorstep of dear old Bill ?
Dave
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I feel flattered that an old mouldy fig could stir up a hornet's nest with my
question on the style of the Bunk-Lewis American Music recordings. After reading
all the posts my concensus is that the New Orleans style jazz continously
evolved, and that their style represents a 40's version of N.O. jazz, and not
and artifact of the10's or early 20's.
The mythical recordings of Bunk getting a new set of dentures and recording on a
portable machine in a neighbor's house since he didn't have electricity actually
exist on an American Music CD. At the moment I cannot locate it, but there is an
unaccompanied recording of Bunk playing haltingly, but still with great beauty.
I did dig up AMCD-16, that has a duet with Bunk and Bertha Gonsoulin (p) playing
Bolden Medley (1943). Nobody had a more beatiful tone on the trumpet than Bunk.
This recording with the power and beatiful tone of Bunk makes a very emotional
impact on me. Compare with the Tom Cat cornet solo with King Oliver and Jelly
Roll Morton (1924) and I'll bet you that Bunk could outplay Oliver!
robertgreenwood_54uk <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote:
Bunk had been out of action for some time before his rediscovery. His
reliability as a witness to the early days of jazz in New Orleans has
been questioned over the years and Don Marquis, in his book about
Bolden, disputes Bunk's own account of his birthdate being 1879 and
argues persuasively that Bunk was probably born in 1889 or
thereabouts and could not have played with Bolden. But poverty and
ill-health (dental health, at least) created a hiatus in Bunk's
musical career. For a musician, or for any artist, the source of
their self-esteem and their very self-definition is in the practice
of their art, and to be prevented from practising that art is, for
them, sheer misery. So Bunk, seeing these researchers taking such an
interest in him, seized the opportunity to get back into playing
music again. He told them what they wanted to hear and, when it was
suggested he could make records and start playing again, he was
prepared to accept most of the compromises necessary to bring that
about. I would suggest that Bunk's aim all along was to get to New
York and enter the mainstream of musical activity up there. I suspect
that he never really relished his role as the grand old man of jazz.
Michael is absolutely right when he points out that Lewis and
Robinson were not his sidemen of choice and that he preferred working
with Garvin Bushell and Ed Cuffee. It's interesting that on the
recordings he made in 1947 with Bushell & Cuffee we do not hear the
complex ensemble work and passing of the lead that we hear on the
AMs. The same can be said for the 1944 V-Discs he made in San
Francisco with Floyd O'Brien & Wade Whaley. Max Harrison, one of the
more perceptive critics on Bunk and on so much else in jazz, once
said that the AMs show Bunk playing relatively simple themes in a
complex way, while the 1947 sides show him playing more complex
themes in a relatively straightforward fashion.
We have little firm knowledge of what NO music was like in the
thirties since no recordings were made in NO at that time. At least
not of any of the resident musicians. All we have got to go on are
the testimony of those musicians who were around at the time and some
photographic evidence, as well as the handful of private recordings
referred to by Michael. The Robichaux tracks made in 1933 in NY may
give a clue, and so might the 1936 Don Albert sides. Any thoughts on
that, anyone? There is a photograph taken of Bunk in the late
twenties in a band with the ill-fated, and un-recorded, trumpeter
Evan Thomas. Looking at the line-up, I suspect they sounded not
unlike the territory bands. I have read that their repertoire
included Stardust and You Rascal You.
A note to the gentleman who initiated this thread with his enquiry
about Bunk: You have stirred up a hornet's nest. There is no more
controversial a figure in the whole of jazz than Bunk Johnson and no
area more argued over than the so-called New Orleans revival.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
on 29/6/05 18:08, sahfen at sahfen@... wrote:
> Does anyone has some precise biographical information about Robert
> Crowder (ts) and Oliver Bibbs (ds)?
Robert Henry Crowder is in Who's Who of jazz, Grove (based on WWJ) and
Evensmo's History of Jazz Tenor Saxophone, but no one seems to know more
than born about 1912 or even whether he is still alive.
We found three Robert Crowder's born in 1912 in the Social Security Death
Index, and didn't feel confident enough of any of them - the reason will be
obvious to anyone who looks at them - to hazard Grove's money on the
applications!
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
The Robert Crowder I mean is a tenor saxophonist that was active in Chicago
during the 30s and the 40s.
About him I've only found that he played with Punch Miller (c. 1934-35), with
Leonard Reed in New York (1934-35) and did the rehearsals for a recording
session never issued with Johnny Dodds. He also worked with Earl Hines,
Lionel Hampton and freelanced with R&B groups, including Little Milton and
Roosevelt Sykes.
Is there something else?
Nicola
I would have thought his main claim to fame is as co-composer (with Eckstine
and Hines) of Stormy Monday Blues, popularized by T-Bone Walker and many
others, and recorded (for example) by his son, drummer Robert Crowder in the
1960s.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "sahfen" <sahfen@...>
To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 4:08 AM
Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Robert "Sax" Crowder
> The Robert Crowder I mean is a tenor saxophonist that was active in
> Chicago
> during the 30s and the 40s.
> About him I've only found that he played with Punch Miller (c. 1934-35),
> with
> Leonard Reed in New York (1934-35) and did the rehearsals for a recording
> session never issued with Johnny Dodds. He also worked with Earl Hines,
> Lionel Hampton and freelanced with R&B groups, including Little Milton and
> Roosevelt Sykes.
> Is there something else?
>
> Nicola
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Mordechai
Right. 'Nobody had a more beautiful tone than Bunk'. Not only tone. He was
an extremely inventive and often surprising musician and his phrasing and
rhythmic sense were profound. One of the great jazz musicians. However,
somewhat invidious to compare him with Oliver. They were from the poles of
N.O. music which, although exaggerated, did exist. Bunk, a schooled reading
musician, Oliver not. Coincidently, Johnny Wiggs, in the article I quoted
earlier this week in regards to Snoozer, suggests this as a real handicap
for Oliver and something which shaped his career and maybe his decline.
Wiggs also very interestingly claims that Oliver never sounded the same
after about 1916 when he left for Chicago and comments on the quality of his
actual sound before that date. I think this probably can be in be
interpreted as only suggesting that records failed to capture that quality.
Wiggs places sound quality very highly and is scathing of Keppard for this
reason.
There is little, if anything, on record to suggest the glory of Oliver's
tone, if it ever was. But, nearer his peak we have him only acoustically.
Also, he became habituated to working in mute. Also, from an early age, he
suffered gum problems. I suggest though that in phrasing and rhythmic feel
Oliver and Bunk, almost contemporaries, are similar. The Morton duets you
mention are the best example. Oliver's genius was in mute, the first player
to use the mute musically not just for freakwork. Or can anyone find an
earlier example ?
Your summary of N.O.revival is also spot on with the proviso that the
revival was itself artificial as was the music produced by it, at least
slightly outside the evolved music of N.O.in the 40s. The real tragedy of
the revival was that evolution then ceased. Repertoire and performing style
were frozen, eventually, solid into the travesties of Bourbon Street and
near travesties of Preservation Hall.
___________________________________________________________
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I have a note (which I think came from a Bob Koester release, maybe when he
recorded Crowder with someone - Rush, Sykes or Lockwood?) that Crowder was
born in 1908.
Even that doesn't help much in terms of the SSDI, but there is a Robert H.
Crowder who was born 21 July 1906 and died on 25 October 1991, and whose
social security card was issued in Tennessee, who may be our man.
He was not listed in the Chicago musicians directory for 1985-86, and maybe
had stopped playing by then.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Rye" <howard@...>
To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 2:53 AM
Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Robert Crowder
> on 29/6/05 18:08, sahfen at sahfen@... wrote:
>
>> Does anyone has some precise biographical information about Robert
>> Crowder (ts) and Oliver Bibbs (ds)?
>
> Robert Henry Crowder is in Who's Who of jazz, Grove (based on WWJ) and
> Evensmo's History of Jazz Tenor Saxophone, but no one seems to know more
> than born about 1912 or even whether he is still alive.
>
> We found three Robert Crowder's born in 1912 in the Social Security Death
> Index, and didn't feel confident enough of any of them - the reason will
> be
> obvious to anyone who looks at them - to hazard Grove's money on the
> applications!
>
> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
> howard@...
> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Thank you everyone for the info on this session.
Steve Hester
----- Original Message -----
From: Howard Rye
To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Johnny Wiggs' recording sessions
on 28/6/05 16:46, sahfen at sahfen@... wrote:
> With the Steve's discover, it's interesting to do a list of Johnny Wiggs'
> recording sessions. Could anyone help me? I known only these dates:
>
> March 10, 1927: John Hyman's Bayou Stompers
> 1947 or 1948: with Snoozer Quinn
> ?, 1953: Tom Brown & His New Orleans Band
> mid 50s: Lizzie Miles
> ?: Johnny Wiggs and His New Orleans Music
There's 27 sessions under his own name in Walter Bruyninckx's Traditional
Jazz discography, too many to copy out. Tom Lord will undoubtedly have
copied them in his discography.
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
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on 29/6/05 21:08, sahfen at sahfen@... wrote:
> The Robert Crowder I mean is a tenor saxophonist that was active in Chicago
> during the 30s and the 40s.
> About him I've only found that he played with Punch Miller (c. 1934-35), with
> Leonard Reed in New York (1934-35) and did the rehearsals for a recording
> session never issued with Johnny Dodds. He also worked with Earl Hines,
> Lionel Hampton and freelanced with R&B groups, including Little Milton and
> Roosevelt Sykes.
> Is there something else?
In Milwaukee early 30s.
with François Mosely's Lousianians in 1932 and again after playing with
Miller.
with Horace Henderson, July 1937
recorded with Lionel Hampton pick-up band, 11 October 1938
with Earl Hines 1939-40 and again 1941-3. Numerous records.
In 1940-41 with Walter Fuller, Francis Butler, Coleman Hawkins.
Didn't record again, as far as is known, until Roosevelt Sykes in 1951,
Eddie Boyd 1952-3. Played alto sax on Otis Rush Vanguard session in 1965.
Chilton reports him having his own band with his wife Lorraine on piano and
evidently believed he was still alive at that point, but it would be
necessary to check through all the editions to find out what date that was!
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
on 30/6/05 6:01, Prof_Hi_Jinx at prof_hi_jinx@... wrote:
> I have a note (which I think came from a Bob Koester release, maybe when he
> recorded Crowder with someone - Rush, Sykes or Lockwood?) that Crowder was
> born in 1908.
The session with Rush is the Blues Today project for Vanguard. Sam
Charters's notes have nothing to say about Crowder. Nor is there anything in
the notes to Delmark's recent CD reissue of the Sykes sides.
>
> Even that doesn't help much in terms of the SSDI, but there is a Robert H.
> Crowder who was born 21 July 1906 and died on 25 October 1991, and whose
> social security card was issued in Tennessee, who may be our man.
Trouble with this, Bob, is that it presents the same problem as the born
1912 entries. Why would he have applied in any Southern state when he was
Chicago-based?
This is possibly the Robert Crowder, elevator operator, aged 24, b. Alabama,
who was lodging at 314 53rd Street, Chicago, in the 1930 census. Of course
there's no proof that isn't our man. There's nothing to suggest a connection
either, nor with either of the Robert H. Crowder's enumerated in Illinois in
1930. (Can't find any in Wisconsin under this spelling.)
CROWDER, LORRAINE b. 7 May 1923 d. 8 Jun 1993; last known residence Gary,
Indiana 46409, seems quite a likely guess for Mrs. Crowder, but if so she
can't help with finding him in the 1930 census.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Howard Rye" <howard@...>
> To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 2:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Robert Crowder
>
>
>> on 29/6/05 18:08, sahfen at sahfen@... wrote:
>>
>>> Does anyone has some precise biographical information about Robert
>>> Crowder (ts) and Oliver Bibbs (ds)?
>>
>> Robert Henry Crowder is in Who's Who of jazz, Grove (based on WWJ) and
>> Evensmo's History of Jazz Tenor Saxophone, but no one seems to know more
>> than born about 1912 or even whether he is still alive.
>>
>> We found three Robert Crowder's born in 1912 in the Social Security Death
>> Index, and didn't feel confident enough of any of them - the reason will
>> be
>> obvious to anyone who looks at them - to hazard Grove's money on the
>> applications!
>>
>> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
>> howard@...
>> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
>>
>>
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
Well, neither Nelson nor Eugene (Homer, that is) were tailgate
players exactly, but, other than that, I hear little similarity in
their playing. They both had experience working in big bands and were
well aware of the developments in jazz that had extended the
expressive and technical resources of the trombone. Sheer economic
necessity may have determined what sort of bands they played in. I
share his great admiration for the playing of Jim Robinson, but in
seeing Jim as "the
only major trombone stylist in post-war N.O.", Dave seems to be
taking rather a purist stance with regard to this music. One of the
criticisms that could possibly be levelled at the revival is that it
restricted and gave a partial view of what was, actually, a very rich
musical tradition in which players like Nelson and Eugene could find
a place. Nelson, for instance, has always seemed to me to have
provided the perfect foil for Kid Thomas's staccato, minimalist lead
trumpet, much more so than Jim Robinson.
As for the second thread, there has been in recent years a tendency
to devalue the work done by Bill Russell. All I can advise is that we
listen to the music he recorded. Its sheer beauty should speak for
itself. I am not sure if Russell ever set out exactly to "document"
the music of NO in any "objective" fashion. His peer group – the
people who would judge his efforts at that time – were his fellow
record collectors and historians. It is only with our longer
perspective, these sixty years later, that we can see the bigger
picture and place the AMs in some context.
I'd like to thank everybody who helped me for the Robert Crowder's
information. This confirm that this is a great forum, an important and
international source for studying classic jazz history.
Nicola
Rob
We agree on the existence of a non-tailgate N.O.trb. style post-revival and
are still left with it's origins. I suggest it was the response of
trombonists coming from a swing section environment to the demands of the
revived 40s ensemble role. It is a pretty simple style owing nothing to the
work of Teagarden and school. Are there any examples in the limited pre-war
N.O. output ? Can experts in the 'classic' area find any wider provenance ?
Nobody in this world is a greater admirer of the great Bill Russell than
myself and to him we owe the debt for not only the AMs but also the glorious
music recorded in their wake. However, we must accept that he brought his
own agenda to N.O.in the 40s and played, at least, as active a role in the
creation of this unique music as any musician.
We also agree on the appropriateness of the work of Nelson within the Thomas
band.
Still left. Did Bill re-invent the banjo ?
Dave
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on 29/6/05 18:08, sahfen at sahfen@... wrote:
> Does anyone has some precise biographical information about Robert
> Crowder (ts) and Oliver Bibbs (ds)?
>
Oliver Bibbs is a disaster area. I don't even feel confident that Bibbs is
his name and not a discographical error. He is quoted thus for his only
issued recording (Jones' Chicago Cosmopolitans, Decca 13 September 1935),
but he was Oliver Bibb without the 's' when he recorded Scissors Grinder
Blues for Brunswick on 15 May 1929 with Oliver Bibb and His Joy Boys.
Unfortunately this wasn't issued and hasn't surfaced as far as I know.
However he is Bibbs in the 22 February 1930 Pittsburgh Courier where he is
named as a member of the band accompanying Mack & Mack at the Elmore Theater
(reported Storyville 1998-9, p.186). This is the only reference to him in
the entire run of Storyville!
Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
howard@...
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
The Tennessee SSN makes sense if he was on tour there (for bizarre, how
about Henry Stuckey's SSN being issued in Nebraska?).
There is some credence to a southern registration because he was obviously
with Hines a lot between 1939 and 1942, and presumably they toured a lot,
and Crowder's son was reportedly born in Atlanta in 1946.
I'm certainly not saying this is him, just that it seems more likely than
some other listings.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Rye" <howard@...>
To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Robert Crowder
> on 30/6/05 6:01, Prof_Hi_Jinx at prof_hi_jinx@... wrote:
>
>> I have a note (which I think came from a Bob Koester release, maybe when
>> he
>> recorded Crowder with someone - Rush, Sykes or Lockwood?) that Crowder
>> was
>> born in 1908.
>
> The session with Rush is the Blues Today project for Vanguard. Sam
> Charters's notes have nothing to say about Crowder. Nor is there anything
> in
> the notes to Delmark's recent CD reissue of the Sykes sides.
>>
>> Even that doesn't help much in terms of the SSDI, but there is a Robert
>> H.
>> Crowder who was born 21 July 1906 and died on 25 October 1991, and whose
>> social security card was issued in Tennessee, who may be our man.
>
> Trouble with this, Bob, is that it presents the same problem as the born
> 1912 entries. Why would he have applied in any Southern state when he was
> Chicago-based?
>
> This is possibly the Robert Crowder, elevator operator, aged 24, b.
> Alabama,
> who was lodging at 314 53rd Street, Chicago, in the 1930 census. Of course
> there's no proof that isn't our man. There's nothing to suggest a
> connection
> either, nor with either of the Robert H. Crowder's enumerated in Illinois
> in
> 1930. (Can't find any in Wisconsin under this spelling.)
>
> CROWDER, LORRAINE b. 7 May 1923 d. 8 Jun 1993; last known residence Gary,
> Indiana 46409, seems quite a likely guess for Mrs. Crowder, but if so she
> can't help with finding him in the 1930 census.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Howard Rye" <howard@...>
>> To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 2:53 AM
>> Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Robert Crowder
>>
>>
>>> on 29/6/05 18:08, sahfen at sahfen@... wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does anyone has some precise biographical information about Robert
>>>> Crowder (ts) and Oliver Bibbs (ds)?
>>>
>>> Robert Henry Crowder is in Who's Who of jazz, Grove (based on WWJ) and
>>> Evensmo's History of Jazz Tenor Saxophone, but no one seems to know more
>>> than born about 1912 or even whether he is still alive.
>>>
>>> We found three Robert Crowder's born in 1912 in the Social Security
>>> Death
>>> Index, and didn't feel confident enough of any of them - the reason will
>>> be
>>> obvious to anyone who looks at them - to hazard Grove's money on the
>>> applications!
>>>
>>> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
>>> howard@...
>>> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
>>>
>>>
>
>
> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
> howard@...
> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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If Bibbs is his name, then perhaps he was the "Common Laborer" who was
renting at 547 34th Street, Chicago in 1930, aged 26, born in Mississippi.
As for whether it was truly Bibb or Bibbs, I wouldn't place much trust in
the Census, either, so it must still be regarded as an open question.
The Chicago man's wife was Cleo, apparently the same age (thus, born
c.1904). However the SSDI gives Cleo Bibbs, born 29 December 1896, who died
in Chicago (zip 60615) during March 1982. Her SSN was issued in IL before
1951.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Rye" <howard@...>
To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz]Oliver Bibbs
> on 29/6/05 18:08, sahfen at sahfen@... wrote:
>
>> Does anyone has some precise biographical information about Robert
>> Crowder (ts) and Oliver Bibbs (ds)?
>>
> Oliver Bibbs is a disaster area. I don't even feel confident that Bibbs is
> his name and not a discographical error. He is quoted thus for his only
> issued recording (Jones' Chicago Cosmopolitans, Decca 13 September 1935),
> but he was Oliver Bibb without the 's' when he recorded Scissors Grinder
> Blues for Brunswick on 15 May 1929 with Oliver Bibb and His Joy Boys.
> Unfortunately this wasn't issued and hasn't surfaced as far as I know.
>
> However he is Bibbs in the 22 February 1930 Pittsburgh Courier where he is
> named as a member of the band accompanying Mack & Mack at the Elmore
> Theater
> (reported Storyville 1998-9, p.186). This is the only reference to him in
> the entire run of Storyville!
>
>
> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
> howard@...
> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
This is what I've found about Sir Oliver Bibbs in these days.
As says Howard in February 1930 he accompanied Billie & Mary Mack in the
travelling show "Pickings From Dixie". Years later he was in Chicago with an
orchestra of his own, that, at the end of the 30s, was at the Savoy Ballroom.
From Januart 1940 circa he was on tour in the southern states and, in 1946,
he had gigs at the Club Silhouette at the Garrick Club of Chicago and at the
Club Rio and the Martin's Club of Springfield. In the same year he visited Des
Moines, Iowa.
Nicola
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