If anyone out there has either Finale or Sibelius, and are able to copy
a couple of song tunes for the next issue of English Dance & Song,
including the creation of an image file that can be used by the
designer, I'd love to hear from you.
Our usual music writer is heavily committed over the next few weeks and
can't do it.
I would need this as soon as possible - hopefully, within a week.
The music does not need to be notated - just copied from an existing
manuscript.
Please contact me off list.
Many thanks.
Derek Schofield
Editor: EDS

Derek
If you haven't already got somebody, I could do that. I have Finale

Let me know

Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek Schofield" <derek@...>
To: <tradsong@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:25 PM
Subject: [Tradsong] music notator needed!


> If anyone out there has either Finale or Sibelius, and are able to copy
> a couple of song tunes for the next issue of English Dance & Song,
> including the creation of an image file that can be used by the
> designer, I'd love to hear from you.
> Our usual music writer is heavily committed over the next few weeks and
> can't do it.
> I would need this as soon as possible - hopefully, within a week.
> The music does not need to be notated - just copied from an existing
> manuscript.
> Please contact me off list.
> Many thanks.
> Derek Schofield
> Editor: EDS
>
>
>
>
>
> The Traditional Song Forum
> http://www.tradsong.org/
>
> "How can I keep from Singing?"
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

One of Fred Archer's books has this verse from Ashton-under-Hill:

We, the Ashton ringers, approach at your door
We can handle our bell(s) and ring you a score
There's Dodge, Bob and Single, and likewise Extreme
When Treble man calls, then Treble man leads.

Can anyone come up with other versions/verses or suggest a tune?  It
sounds to me as though it should be in triple time.

Gwilym

Does anyone have a copy of the above-mentioned LP, which has Amy Birch
singing 'The Molecatcher' on it?  If so, do you want to sell it, or
run me off a copy on cassette or CD?  Very grateful.

Gwilym

As it has not been posted yet, Charlie Hill died on Monday this week,
funeral this Friday.

Marilyn Tucker

Gwilym

It's called Devon Tradition, and is from the Staverton Bridge collecting -
so we have an archive copy here at Wren.

Contact me off group to discuss a CD copy etc.


--
Marilyn Tucker
Artistic Director
Wren - a world where every voice is heard

Wren Music is a registered charity number 297257


1 St James Street
Okehampton
Devon
EX20 1DW

Tel 01837 53754
Fax 01837 55924

www.wrenmusic.co.uk




On 24/7/06 4:35 pm, "Gwilym Davies" <gwilymdavies@...> wrote:

> Does anyone have a copy of the above-mentioned LP, which has Amy Birch
> singing 'The Molecatcher' on it?  If so, do you want to sell it, or
> run me off a copy on cassette or CD?  Very grateful.
>
> Gwilym
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Traditional Song Forum
> http://www.tradsong.org/
>
> "How can I keep from Singing?"
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

September in London: Life and Times in Irish Song



Saturday 2nd September 2006   10.00 am to 5.00 pm.

Cecil Sharp House, 2 Regents Park Road, London NW1 7AY



Continuing the Traditional Song Forum's series of 'Life and Times' sessions, a
unique chance to hear four of the most experienced collectors and commentators
in the field of Irish traditional song: Jim Carroll, Pat Mackenzie, John
Moulden, and Tom Munnelly. As usual, the speakers have carte blanche to talk
about any aspect of their experiences they choose, with recorded examples, and a
stimulating and informative day is guaranteed. New and second-hand books, CDs
and records will also be on sale.



Organised jointly by the Traditional Song Forum and the Vaughan Williams
Memorial Library. Members of the TSF and EFDSS £7.50; non-members £10, pay on
the door.



Any enquiries to Steve Roud, sroud@....








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gwilym,
I'd be very surprised if it didn't go to something resembling a bell peal of
some sort.

SteveG


>From: "Gwilym Davies" <gwilymdavies@...>
>Reply-To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Tradsong] Worcs/Glos bellinging song query
>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:33:19 -0000
>
>One of Fred Archer's books has this verse from Ashton-under-Hill:
>
>We, the Ashton ringers, approach at your door
>We can handle our bell(s) and ring you a score
>There's Dodge, Bob and Single, and likewise Extreme
>When Treble man calls, then Treble man leads.
>
>Can anyone come up with other versions/verses or suggest a tune?  It
>sounds to me as though it should be in triple time.
>
>Gwilym
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™ Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free!
http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb

To reinforce Steve's point, according to Dove's "Church Bells of Britain"
(the authority on the subject) Ashton-under-Hill has six bells, so some
form of triple time is plausible.
Cheers
Simon
> Gwilym,
> I'd be very surprised if it didn't go to something resembling a bell peal
> of
> some sort.
>
> SteveG
>
>
>>From: "Gwilym Davies" <gwilymdavies@...>
>>Reply-To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>>To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: [Tradsong] Worcs/Glos bellinging song query
>>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:33:19 -0000
>>
>>One of Fred Archer's books has this verse from Ashton-under-Hill:
>>
>>We, the Ashton ringers, approach at your door
>>We can handle our bell(s) and ring you a score
>>There's Dodge, Bob and Single, and likewise Extreme
>>When Treble man calls, then Treble man leads.
>>
>>Can anyone come up with other versions/verses or suggest a tune?  It
>>sounds to me as though it should be in triple time.
>>
>>Gwilym
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live™ Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free!
> http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb
>
>
>
> The Traditional Song Forum
>  http://www.tradsong.org/
>
> "How can I keep from Singing?"
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Very sad but he had not been well for some time.  Another good one
gone.  I have lots of recordings of Charlie.  I probably won't be able
to go the funeral but would appreciate knowing where to send a floral
tribute.

Gwilym


--- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, Marilyn Tucker <marilyn@...> wrote:
>
> As it has not been posted yet, Charlie Hill died on Monday this week,
> funeral this Friday.
>
> Marilyn Tucker
>

So perhaps I ought to contact the current Ashton bellringers to find
out the tune for their peal.

Gwilym

--- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, "simon.furey" <simon.furey@...> wrote:
>
> To reinforce Steve's point, according to Dove's "Church Bells of
Britain"
> (the authority on the subject) Ashton-under-Hill has six bells, so some
> form of triple time is plausible.
> Cheers
> Simon
> > Gwilym,
> > I'd be very surprised if it didn't go to something resembling a
bell peal
> > of
> > some sort.
> >
> > SteveG
> >
> >
> >>From: "Gwilym Davies" <gwilymdavies@...>
> >>Reply-To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
> >>To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
> >>Subject: [Tradsong] Worcs/Glos bellinging song query
> >>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:33:19 -0000
> >>
> >>One of Fred Archer's books has this verse from Ashton-under-Hill:
> >>
> >>We, the Ashton ringers, approach at your door
> >>We can handle our bell(s) and ring you a score
> >>There's Dodge, Bob and Single, and likewise Extreme
> >>When Treble man calls, then Treble man leads.
> >>
> >>Can anyone come up with other versions/verses or suggest a tune?  It
> >>sounds to me as though it should be in triple time.
> >>
> >>Gwilym
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Windows Live™ Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for
free!
> > http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb
> >
> >
> >
> > The Traditional Song Forum
> >  http://www.tradsong.org/
> >
> > "How can I keep from Singing?"
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Gwilym,
It doesn't work like that. Bellringers in this country don't play tunes;
they ring methods, which are permutated sequences of rung bells, such as
"Bob Minor" or "Grandsire Doubles" or whatever. The particular sequences
they use are dictated by the number of bells and the repertoire of the
ringers. So with six bells (as at Ashton) you get a sequence of 6,
followed by a different sequence of 6 and so on, normally with a slight
pause between each 6. Hence my comment that a triple-time tune is
plausible. It is possible that the tune you are looking for is based on
some sequences within a well-known method. It might be worth getting in
touch with the Ashton ringers to find out what methods they use (it's
extremely unlikely that they have their own unique method), but of course
this is no guarantee that these methods were in use when the song was
created.
By the way, a peal is a special case of ringing all possible permutations
of a method with a few more bits thrown in and takes hours and hours. It
is rarely done; even quarter peals are reserved for special occasions.
Cheers
Simon.

> So perhaps I ought to contact the current Ashton bellringers to find
> out the tune for their peal.
>
> Gwilym
>
> --- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, "simon.furey" <simon.furey@...> wrote:
>>
>> To reinforce Steve's point, according to Dove's "Church Bells of
> Britain"
>> (the authority on the subject) Ashton-under-Hill has six bells, so some
>> form of triple time is plausible.
>> Cheers
>> Simon
>> > Gwilym,
>> > I'd be very surprised if it didn't go to something resembling a
> bell peal
>> > of
>> > some sort.
>> >
>> > SteveG
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: "Gwilym Davies" <gwilymdavies@...>
>> >>Reply-To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>> >>To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>> >>Subject: [Tradsong] Worcs/Glos bellinging song query
>> >>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:33:19 -0000
>> >>
>> >>One of Fred Archer's books has this verse from Ashton-under-Hill:
>> >>
>> >>We, the Ashton ringers, approach at your door
>> >>We can handle our bell(s) and ring you a score
>> >>There's Dodge, Bob and Single, and likewise Extreme
>> >>When Treble man calls, then Treble man leads.
>> >>
>> >>Can anyone come up with other versions/verses or suggest a tune?  It
>> >>sounds to me as though it should be in triple time.
>> >>
>> >>Gwilym
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Windows Live™ Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for
> free!
>> > http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The Traditional Song Forum
>> >  http://www.tradsong.org/
>> >
>> > "How can I keep from Singing?"
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Traditional Song Forum
>  http://www.tradsong.org/
>
> "How can I keep from Singing?"
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Gwilym

I meant to talk to you about this when we met on Thursday and forgot.  It struck
me that these ringers 'approach at your door' and 'handle our bells'.  I would
suggest that you consider the possibility that they are hand bell ringers.  This
does not rule out the possibility that they are tower ringers as well - but
handbells are more portable than a church and a way of earning money at
Christmas.

I have been surprised at how few bell ringers songs there are in the tradition. 
Baring-Gould has five from Devon and Cornwall, including 'Egloshayle Ringers'
and 'The Bell-ringing'.  When I was asking around a few years ago no-one could
come up with bell ringing songs from other C19th collectors.  (songs about
bells, yes but not about ringers).  At last there is another  -  but I am sure
that there must be others  -  aren't there, folks!?

Martin

----- Original Message -----
   From: Gwilym Davies
   To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 11:10 AM
   Subject: [Tradsong] Re: Worcs/Glos bellinging song query


   So perhaps I ought to contact the current Ashton bellringers to find
   out the tune for their peal.

   Gwilym

   --- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, "simon.furey" <simon.furey@...> wrote:
   >
   > To reinforce Steve's point, according to Dove's "Church Bells of
   Britain"
   > (the authority on the subject) Ashton-under-Hill has six bells, so some
   > form of triple time is plausible.
   > Cheers
   > Simon
   > > Gwilym,
   > > I'd be very surprised if it didn't go to something resembling a
   bell peal
   > > of
   > > some sort.
   > >
   > > SteveG
   > >
   > >
   > >>From: "Gwilym Davies" <gwilymdavies@...>
   > >>Reply-To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
   > >>To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
   > >>Subject: [Tradsong] Worcs/Glos bellinging song query
   > >>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:33:19 -0000
   > >>
   > >>One of Fred Archer's books has this verse from Ashton-under-Hill:
   > >>
   > >>We, the Ashton ringers, approach at your door
   > >>We can handle our bell(s) and ring you a score
   > >>There's Dodge, Bob and Single, and likewise Extreme
   > >>When Treble man calls, then Treble man leads.
   > >>
   > >>Can anyone come up with other versions/verses or suggest a tune? It
   > >>sounds to me as though it should be in triple time.
   > >>
   > >>Gwilym
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>
   > >
   > > __________________________________________________________
   > > Windows LiveT Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for
   free!
   > > http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > The Traditional Song Forum
   > > http://www.tradsong.org/
   > >
   > > "How can I keep from Singing?"
   > > Yahoo! Groups Links
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm trying to get an idea of what have been the most popular traditional songs
sung in the present revival (i.e. since the early 60s). The idea is to compare
with the songs recovered from source singers uninfluenced by the revival. Apart
from guessing, does anybody know of anybody who has any data on this? Perhaps
somebody kept a log of the songs sung at a particular club?

Hope to hear from somebody

Pete Wood

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter,
Yes, an excellent project but one that will need a lot of time. All I can
suggest is that there are various people out there with extensive recordings
made at particular clubs, Brian Senior at the Grove in Leeds for instance,
and I'm sure there are others. It would make a good degree study for
someone. It's sad but I used to keep records of every vaguely folky song I
heard on the radio as a teenager. Unfortunately these lists didn't survive,
but there must have been other sad buggers out there as well.
The Purslow series of books, particularly Marrowbones, had an enormous
influence on floor singer repertoires in the late sixties and beyond.

SteveG


>From: "peter" <peter@...>
>Reply-To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>To: <Tradsong@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [Tradsong] popular songs
>Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 11:17:23 +0100
>
>I'm trying to get an idea of what have been the most popular traditional
>songs sung in the present revival (i.e. since the early 60s). The idea is
>to compare with the songs recovered from source singers uninfluenced by the
>revival. Apart from guessing, does anybody know of anybody who has any data
>on this? Perhaps somebody kept a log of the songs sung at a particular
>club?
>
>Hope to hear from somebody
>
>Pete Wood
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________
Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters!
http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters

Hi, to TSF members of Roud Index group,
David, Elaine, Steve, Andrew, and anyone else who wants to chip in;

Mastertitles quandary.

Which title to use?
'Bruton Town' on the face of it is the obvious one with the most
English entries in Roud, BUT only 2 versions with this name actually
survived, all but one being derived from Mrs Overd's
version. 'Bridgwater Merchant' the likely original, was not found as a
title in England in oral tradition. This leaves the most common title
in English for different versions as 'The Brake of Briars' with 4
versions. Here is the real question which I need answering as a
precedent for other entries, do we go for the well-known widely printed
title even though there are few different versions with this title, or
do we go for  the title found on more different versions, although not
so widely published????

SteveG

Dear Steve,

Greetings from Birmingham, England!

I do not know if this helps, and you probably know it already, but for what it
is worth there is a fairly lengthy note on "Bruton Town," written by the
incomparable Cecil, on pp. xvii to xviii of "One Hundred English Folk Songs."
Amongst other things he links the ballad back to Boccaccio, gives "In Strawberry
Town" as a variant title, and refers to "a very searching analysis" by the
incomparable Lucy in an early edition of the "Journal of the Folk Song Society."
But, as you know, there is a problem; in Cecil's words, "this ballad is one of
the very few that succeeded in eluding the notice of Professor Child."

Oh, wow! I love this stuff! Mr. Sharp and Miss Broadwood! Would they were living
at this hour!

If you want me to scan in Sharp's note and send it to you please let me know.

With all best wishes,

Lewis.

http://www.geocities.com/ferretpublications/

for sheet music, MIDIs, articles on folk song, a photograph of a ferret, and
much, much more.



----- Original Message ----
From: gripperfolk <gardhams@...>
To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 30 July, 2006 1:57:57 PM
Subject: [Tradsong] BrutonBridgwaterBramblesBrakes

Hi, to TSF members of Roud Index group,
David, Elaine, Steve, Andrew, and anyone else who wants to chip in;

Mastertitles quandary.

Which title to use?
'Bruton Town' on the face of it is the obvious one with the most
English entries in Roud, BUT only 2 versions with this name actually
survived, all but one being derived from Mrs Overd's
version. 'Bridgwater Merchant' the likely original, was not found as a
title in England in oral tradition. This leaves the most common title
in English for different versions as 'The Brake of Briars' with 4
versions. Here is the real question which I need answering as a
precedent for other entries, do we go for the well-known widely printed
title even though there are few different versions with this title, or
do we go for the title found on more different versions, although not
so widely published??? ?

SteveG




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lewis,
Sorry to have to refute Lucy's findings but as far back as 1918, H M Belden
put the Kybosh on any links between Hans Sachs and The Bridgwater Merchant.
If you have time see my latest article on Mustrad. There can't really be any
serious doubt that Bridgwater Merchant links directly to The Decameron, but
there were plenty of English translations of The Decameron flying about from
the 17th century onwards. For my money it's simply a broadside reworking of
the story from c1750 that has not surfaced yet or didn't survive. There must
have been many if we look at those that survived in just a single version on
broadside. Hardly ideal Child material.

BTW I don't mean to denigrate the work of the likes of Sharp and Broadwood,
but they did not have access to the vast stores of broadsides we now have,
and some of the later material surfacing in manuscripts.

Thanks for your kind offer, I have OHEF, and the Broadwood article.
All the best.

SteveG


>From: Lewis Jones <lewis.jones5@...>
>Reply-To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Tradsong] BrutonBridgwaterBramblesBrakes
>Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 20:23:06 +0000 (GMT)
>
>Dear Steve,
>
>Greetings from Birmingham, England!
>
>I do not know if this helps, and you probably know it already, but for what
>it is worth there is a fairly lengthy note on "Bruton Town," written by the
>incomparable Cecil, on pp. xvii to xviii of "One Hundred English Folk
>Songs." Amongst other things he links the ballad back to Boccaccio, gives
>"In Strawberry Town" as a variant title, and refers to "a very searching
>analysis" by the incomparable Lucy in an early edition of the "Journal of
>the Folk Song Society." But, as you know, there is a problem; in Cecil's
>words, "this ballad is one of the very few that succeeded in eluding the
>notice of Professor Child."
>
>Oh, wow! I love this stuff! Mr. Sharp and Miss Broadwood! Would they were
>living at this hour!
>
>If you want me to scan in Sharp's note and send it to you please let me
>know.
>
>With all best wishes,
>
>Lewis.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/ferretpublications/
>
>for sheet music, MIDIs, articles on folk song, a photograph of a ferret,
>and much, much more.
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: gripperfolk <gardhams@...>
>To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sunday, 30 July, 2006 1:57:57 PM
>Subject: [Tradsong] BrutonBridgwaterBramblesBrakes
>
>Hi, to TSF members of Roud Index group,
>David, Elaine, Steve, Andrew, and anyone else who wants to chip in;
>
>Mastertitles quandary.
>
>Which title to use?
>'Bruton Town' on the face of it is the obvious one with the most
>English entries in Roud, BUT only 2 versions with this name actually
>survived, all but one being derived from Mrs Overd's
>version. 'Bridgwater Merchant' the likely original, was not found as a
>title in England in oral tradition. This leaves the most common title
>in English for different versions as 'The Brake of Briars' with 4
>versions. Here is the real question which I need answering as a
>precedent for other entries, do we go for the well-known widely printed
>title even though there are few different versions with this title, or
>do we go for the title found on more different versions, although not
>so widely published??? ?
>
>SteveG
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________
Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters!
http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters

The local (Glos/south of England) gypsy versions are all known as
Brake of Briars, so that gets my vote.

Gwilym


--- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, "gripperfolk" <gardhams@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, to TSF members of Roud Index group,
> David, Elaine, Steve, Andrew, and anyone else who wants to chip in;
>
> Mastertitles quandary.
>
> Which title to use?
> 'Bruton Town' on the face of it is the obvious one with the most
> English entries in Roud, BUT only 2 versions with this name actually
> survived, all but one being derived from Mrs Overd's
> version. 'Bridgwater Merchant' the likely original, was not found as a
> title in England in oral tradition. This leaves the most common title
> in English for different versions as 'The Brake of Briars' with 4
> versions. Here is the real question which I need answering as a
> precedent for other entries, do we go for the well-known widely printed
> title even though there are few different versions with this title, or
> do we go for  the title found on more different versions, although not
> so widely published????
>
> SteveG
>

Gwilym,
Thanks for this.
Whilst my own instinct is to go with the 'Brake of Briars' title as it is
the most widely used title amongst oral sources, Rod has a very valid point
in that not many of these have been published and Mrs Overd's 'Bruton Town'
has been published ad nauseam and grafted onto other versions giving them
its title. You see my quandary!
I'll email Steve and David, see what they think.

Best wishes,
Steve


>From: "Gwilym Davies" <gwilymdavies@...>
>Reply-To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Tradsong] Re: BrutonBridgwaterBramblesBrakes
>Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 10:49:43 -0000
>
>The local (Glos/south of England) gypsy versions are all known as
>Brake of Briars, so that gets my vote.
>
>Gwilym
>
>
>--- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, "gripperfolk" <gardhams@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, to TSF members of Roud Index group,
> > David, Elaine, Steve, Andrew, and anyone else who wants to chip in;
> >
> > Mastertitles quandary.
> >
> > Which title to use?
> > 'Bruton Town' on the face of it is the obvious one with the most
> > English entries in Roud, BUT only 2 versions with this name actually
> > survived, all but one being derived from Mrs Overd's
> > version. 'Bridgwater Merchant' the likely original, was not found as a
> > title in England in oral tradition. This leaves the most common title
> > in English for different versions as 'The Brake of Briars' with 4
> > versions. Here is the real question which I need answering as a
> > precedent for other entries, do we go for the well-known widely printed
> > title even though there are few different versions with this title, or
> > do we go for  the title found on more different versions, although not
> > so widely published????
> >
> > SteveG
> >
>
>
>
>
>

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Tom and Barbara Brown maintain lists of the songs sung at the successive
annual "Song and Ale" celebrations.

John Moulden


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well the two from the Brazil family are both called that, but the
Bristol version is "The Fields Of Hunting" which is a great title, if
you really want to confuse the issue!

I think the brake of briars phrase crops up in most - whereas the
placename seems to drop off when the singer didn;t know the place?

Paul Burgess


On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 10:49:43 -0000, you wrote:

>The local (Glos/south of England) gypsy versions are all known as
>Brake of Briars, so that gets my vote.
>
>Gwilym
>
>
>--- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, "gripperfolk" <gardhams@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, to TSF members of Roud Index group,
>> David, Elaine, Steve, Andrew, and anyone else who wants to chip in;
>>
>> Mastertitles quandary.
>>
>> Which title to use?
>> 'Bruton Town' on the face of it is the obvious one with the most
>> English entries in Roud, BUT only 2 versions with this name actually
>> survived, all but one being derived from Mrs Overd's
>> version. 'Bridgwater Merchant' the likely original, was not found as a
>> title in England in oral tradition. This leaves the most common title
>> in English for different versions as 'The Brake of Briars' with 4
>> versions. Here is the real question which I need answering as a
>> precedent for other entries, do we go for the well-known widely printed
>> title even though there are few different versions with this title, or
>> do we go for  the title found on more different versions, although not
>> so widely published????
>>
>> SteveG
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>The Traditional Song Forum
> http://www.tradsong.org/
>
>"How can I keep from Singing?"
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, "gripperfolk" <gardhams@...> wrote:
>
>Here is the real question which I need answering as a
> precedent for other entries, do we go for the well-known widely
printed
> title even though there are few different versions with this title,
or
> do we go for  the title found on more different versions, although
not
> so widely published????

Titles found in several different versions may, perhaps, give a
better indication of the 'original' - particularly if they are from
different parts of the country. However, as a precedent for entries,
it makes sense to use the most widely printed version in my opinion.
We live in a literate world. Besides, the printed versions are
usually the first to get posted onto the internet, where they quickly
establish their virtual mycellium. Once the search bots pick them up,
they become impossible to stop. So we might as well accept it -
that's how most people will access this information anyway.

Regards,
Yorkie.

Steve

I suspect that this is but one of many similar dilemmas.  My recommendation
is, firstly, think what the purpose of master titles is  -  to direct as
many people as possible to the right song.  I'm coming down on the side of
Chris with this point.  The published and recorded title is the one most
people will start from.  A quick dip in the library shows that Bert Lloyd
uses 'Bruton Town'.  It is also the title that a quick sample of recordings
uses (though I have not done a definitive study!).   It is also the title I
have used for over 40 years and, dammit, I'm not going to change now (sorry,
now I've passed 60 I find that I suddenly staert saying things like that).

Good luck  -  I am sure we can live with whatever choice you make

Martin


Good luck!




----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Gardham" <gardhams@...>
To: <Tradsong@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 2:12 PM
Subject: RE: [Tradsong] Re: BrutonBridgwaterBramblesBrakes


> Gwilym,
> Thanks for this.
> Whilst my own instinct is to go with the 'Brake of Briars' title as it is
> the most widely used title amongst oral sources, Rod has a very valid
> point
> in that not many of these have been published and Mrs Overd's 'Bruton
> Town'
> has been published ad nauseam and grafted onto other versions giving them
> its title. You see my quandary!
> I'll email Steve and David, see what they think.
>
> Best wishes,
> Steve
>
>
>>From: "Gwilym Davies" <gwilymdavies@...>
>>Reply-To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>>To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: [Tradsong] Re: BrutonBridgwaterBramblesBrakes
>>Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 10:49:43 -0000
>>
>>The local (Glos/south of England) gypsy versions are all known as
>>Brake of Briars, so that gets my vote.
>>
>>Gwilym
>>
>>
>>--- In Tradsong@yahoogroups.com, "gripperfolk" <gardhams@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi, to TSF members of Roud Index group,
>> > David, Elaine, Steve, Andrew, and anyone else who wants to chip in;
>> >
>> > Mastertitles quandary.
>> >
>> > Which title to use?
>> > 'Bruton Town' on the face of it is the obvious one with the most
>> > English entries in Roud, BUT only 2 versions with this name actually
>> > survived, all but one being derived from Mrs Overd's
>> > version. 'Bridgwater Merchant' the likely original, was not found as a
>> > title in England in oral tradition. This leaves the most common title
>> > in English for different versions as 'The Brake of Briars' with 4
>> > versions. Here is the real question which I need answering as a
>> > precedent for other entries, do we go for the well-known widely printed
>> > title even though there are few different versions with this title, or
>> > do we go for  the title found on more different versions, although not
>> > so widely published????
>> >
>> > SteveG
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows LiveT Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free!
> http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb
>
>
>
> The Traditional Song Forum
> http://www.tradsong.org/
>
> "How can I keep from Singing?"
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I wonder if anyone can help with the attached.  We know that it is widely used,
as Judith suggests, as a demonstration of alliteration in teaching poetry and
that the names change according to locality but does anyone know whether there
is actually an 'original' version?

Martin


----- Original Message -----
From: Judith Inman
To: martin.graebe@...
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:03 PM
Subject: help to complete nonsense poem


Hello,Martin and Shan
Judith Inman here
I go to Maidenhead Folk Club but my parents came from Moreton-in -Marsh, Glos.
My godmother is still living there and full of beans [for 90].
She has mentioned the following fragment several times and I have realised you
may be able to either complete it or suggest where I might go to find out more.
       " one old ox opening oysters
         two tired toads trying to trot to Tetbury
        three fat friars frying fish"

Tetbury suggests a local rhyme but could it have been from a school book of
alliteration?
Gwen was born and bred in Moreton .
thankyou for reading this, hope to hear from you
Regards Judith

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 02/08/2006 07:31:46 GMT Daylight Time,
martin.graebe@... writes:

She has mentioned the following fragment several times and I have realised
you may be able to either complete it or suggest where I might go to find out
more.
" one old ox opening oysters
two tired toads trying to trot to Tetbury
three fat friars frying fish"



My small contribution to this - it is certainly fairly widely known, at
least, I heard part of it "two totally tired toads trying to trot to Tewkesbury"
from an old man in a suburb of Belfast sometime around 1972.

John Moulden


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 02/08/2006 08:39:40 GMT Daylight Time, jmoul81075@...
writes:

My small contribution to this - it is certainly fairly widely known, at
least, I heard part of it "two totally tired toads trying to trot to
Tewkesbury"
from an old man in a suburb of Belfast sometime around 1972.


Actually, now that I remember more clearly, it was from a woman, who was from
Northern Ireland, and she quoted it as a description of her husband and
herself, both aging, walking home from the bus stop. It was "two toads, totally
tired, trying to trot to Tewkesbury". This could suggest a bookish origin.

John Moulden


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm having too many bites at this cherry but using Tewkesbury as the place
name in google produces good information, many citing it as a tongue twister -
but particularly useful is
_http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0603/p18s02-hfes.html_
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0603/p18s02-hfes.html)  which refers to a
'long alliterative counting rhyme" and says:

"With "Nursey Percy" I associate a long, alliterative counting verse that
begins, "One old ox opening oysters." She could sometimes be pestered into
reciting it in the back of the car on long, boring journeys. I hadn't found it
in a
book until today. There it is in a footnote in "The Annotated Mother Goose."
The version in this volume is different from Percy's, and I wonder if she had
elaborated it to suit herself. The Mother Goose's second line, for instance, is
"Two tee-totums totally tired of trying to trot to Tadbury." But Percy's
went: "Two toads totally tired trying to trot to Tisbury." I prefer hers."

That should pin it.

John Moulden


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

Not just alliteration but used as an example of a tongue twister.as well?
Certainly "googling" for it results finds it in a number of databases of tongue
twisters.

Can I also draw the group's attention to a blog I have started and if anyone
comes across any Licensing Act "stupidities to let me know? Of course anyone in
N.Ireland or Scotland will wonder what I am talking about since this nonsense
does not apply there.

Dave
http://licensing-folkiedave.blogspot.com/

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Martin Graebe
   To: Tradsong@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 7:29 AM
   Subject: [Tradsong] Fw: help to complete nonsense poem


   I wonder if anyone can help with the attached. We know that it is widely used,
as Judith suggests, as a demonstration of alliteration in teaching poetry and
that the names change according to locality but does anyone know whether there
is actually an 'original' version?

   Martin

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Judith Inman
   To: martin.graebe@...
   Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:03 PM
   Subject: help to complete nonsense poem

   Hello,Martin and Shan
   Judith Inman here
   I go to Maidenhead Folk Club but my parents came from Moreton-in -Marsh, Glos.
   My godmother is still living there and full of beans [for 90].
   She has mentioned the following fragment several times and I have realised you
may be able to either complete it or suggest where I might go to find out more.
   " one old ox opening oysters
   two tired toads trying to trot to Tetbury
   three fat friars frying fish"

   Tetbury suggests a local rhyme but could it have been from a school book of
alliteration?
   Gwen was born and bred in Moreton .
   thankyou for reading this, hope to hear from you
   Regards Judith

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 02/08/2006 09:13:05 GMT Daylight Time, dave@...
writes:

Not just alliteration but used as an example of a tongue twister.as well?
Certainly "googling" for it results finds it in a number of databases of tongue
twisters.


Halliwell, James Orchard *The Nursery Rhymes of England* p. 131 (no. 325)
gives a version similar to that cited in the Christian Science Monitor article
to
which I drew attention. It includes "Eight Englishmen eagerly examining
Europe" and other equally unlikely situations. It ends "Twelve typographical
topographers typically translating types."

John Moulden


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]