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Yep, the phrase "Secular Humanism" is seen as bad by some, just as the word "Liberal." They can cause red flags to go up! Thanks for helping me see from another angle, Guy. Yes, the word "secular" does mean, imply, suggest: "outside of organized religion." One reason I used the word "secular" is that it goes well with the word "spirituality." And regarding Yes specifically...I've always been awed at Yes's ability to express a spirituality within the secular world - the common everyday world we all live in.
One example of the secular world (to me) is the music industry itself. The music business itself (money, power, ego's) is one good example of "secularism." You know the "go for it (profit, prestige, etc.) no matter the cost...no matter how many people you have to step on in order to get it." Jon has often sung against such ugliness..."Be gone you ever piercing power play machine." Yeah, be gone, because it sure the hell gets in the way of true art, such as Yes music! (Sarcastic) Yet (I know), Yes themselves (as well as all of them) wouldn't have the worldly exposure, or longevity, without that very "play machine." Secularism. It APPEARS to be a "necessary evil."
To fine tune here, being that I did not intend the phrase "secular spirituality" to have anything to do with religion actually, perhaps a more accurate phrase would be "Human Spirituality?" For, I see it as a spirituality that is natural to our human nature. It is a birthright. (Gee, after all these years of listening to Yes music, no wonder I see this way...as do you and many others.)
Because of the magical (and mysterious) way that much of Yes's music is expressed, I feel that they have helped us listeners sense that goodness, love, beauty, and spirituality are easy (ok, simple, natural). (Woops, here comes the gratitude again!)
You know Guy, I haven't really heard too much of Conspiracy. After a certain point, I kinda zoned out, which had nothing to do about "the way the band was going." I guess you could say that I already got what I liked and didn't need anymore at that time - you know what I mean? I just so happened to "get back on board" (a little) with Magnification. Therefore, in this way, you've helped me to see that this thread would be better titled..."I love the SPIRIT of Yes music because..." For, I'm not too swift about the music post Talk. (Although, after readings from another group, I was inspired to get "The Ladder." But, I've only listened to it a few times. A VERY good Yes album! I like! But as an experience Yes fan, I know that their albums grow on you with time. Isn't it interesting that we fans often don't "get" what the band "got," until years later?)
I think I had read somewhere about Mag coming out on 9/11, but I had forgotten it. Thanks for the reminder. Very interesting and important connection. But, I admit I am a bit partial (or Pollyannaish?) that the spirit of the music of Yes has been (is) "prophetic" for the whole latter half of the 20th century! Or said another way, to me the value and importance of the spirit of Yes's music has always been harmonious to human beings no matter the moment in history (This is really an expanded way of agreeing with you Guy).
Thank you,
Mark
----- Original Message -----From: Guy DeRomeSent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:21 AMSubject: Re: [WeHaveHeaven] Re: I love Yes music because ...Mark,
Very well put. So many things to comment on.
I truely believe that we are all a little bit of God
or, rather, God is in all of us. What we call "God" is
really a collective human consciousness.
To me, "secular spirituality" means spirituality that
is outside of organized religion; a sort of gnostiscm.
And I am sure the right-wing religious fanatics would
lump that all into what they derogatorily call secular
humanism.
I agree about the balance and complementary nature of
Chris and Jon's collaboration. They are together
greater than the sum of their parts. Their solos
efforts are not as great as their best Yes creations
by far. What do you think of Conspiracy? I find it
bland and uninteresting with little to say musically
or lyrically.
For me, the line "we're standing on sacred ground"
means that it is ALL sacred ground. It is sacred
because WE are standing on it. We are sacred,
therefore the ground on which we stand is sacred.
Magnification came to sound very prophetic with 9/11.
I was living in Barclona on 9/11/01. I watched it
unfold on TV there. It was a holiday and we were at
lunch at some friend's house. Magnification was
released in Europe on...9/11/01.
Keep up the good work; spreading the gospel according
to YES!
Guy
--- Mark Smith <dimension05@...> wrote:
> Human/Gods? Gods/Humans? We grow. We learn. We
> mature. Our Yes-Gods turn out to be human beings
> after all. It causes me to wonder
> sometimes...perhaps they ARE gods...within their
> humanness? If that is true, then perhaps we too are
> gods in our humanness?
>
> That is the core of a talk/presentation I've given
> that speaks of a secular spirituality. I could
> explain that phrase if you want, but if one sits
> with it for a while, perhaps it becomes pretty
> obvious what it means?
>
> ONE of the most human/divine pieces of Yes music to
> me is "I Get Up, I Get Down." The humanness blended
> with the divinity of it is - to me - beyond
> masterful, beyond... In this talk, after I play
> for my audience this piece of music I say, "Can it
> be possible that in blending and balancing the
> opposites of good and bad in our own human nature, a
> divine nature can then float to the surface?"
>
> THIS is a big reason why I am on fire with gratitude
> for the existence of Yes music, because when the
> music gets into your pores, you can hear - no FEEL -
> that the music has succeeded in expressing this
> human/divine nature. Not only expressing it, but
> offering hope that it CAN be a possibility! At this
> point, one can ONLY want to celebrate!
>
> Most places I've only seen a hopeLESSness regarding
> our humanness (and within my own life as well). In
> the end, many, many ideologies (that I've seen)
> equate humanness and despair.
>
> A wonderful quality that the BAND Yes contains is
> that in Thomas Mosbo's book "YES - But What Does It
> Mean?" he clarifies that Chris is the (practical)
> humanist, and Jon is the (dreamy) spiritualist. And
> that it is the balance between these two personality
> forces that has been a strong factor in their
> success and longevity. Perhaps this sort of artistic
> union exists in other places, but I myself have not
> seen it.
>
> I conclude my presentation ("Secular Spirituality as
> expressed by the musical group Yes") with what I
> call Sacred Ground (Turn Around And Remember" - the
> finale to "In The Presence Of"). For me, it's easy
> to see the Phoenix rising from the ashes of human
> despair into a kind of natural divinity. I say "Like
> a sprout pushing up through the concrete, YOU are
> standing on sacred ground! WE are standing on sacred
> ground!"
>
> So, yea, I guess you could say I like Magnification!
> :) Love the DVD from Amsterdam!
>
> Mark
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Guy DeRome
> To: WeHaveHeaven@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [WeHaveHeaven] Re: I love Yes music
> because ...
>
>
> Mark,
> Very well put. I think, to sum it all up: Yes is
> human. Back in 1974 I might have argued that they
> were
> gods, but age (mine and theirs) has tempered that
> feeling. Yes is responsible for putting out some
> of
> the most positive vibes of ANY group in the past
> 30
> years.
>
> I don't like Talk either. As you can tell, I don't
> like any of the Rabin era CDs and I could go into
> all
> the reasons why, but 1) This is not the place, and
> 2)
> It has been done to death elsewhere.
>
> On a positive note, I will say that the song
> Homeworld
> is their best, and most positive, song of the
> post-Rabin years IMHO. The Magnification album
> certainly ranks up there, too. What say you?
>
> Guy
>
> --- Mark Smith <dimension05@...> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for letting me fine-tune my words Guy. I
> see
> > now how my words may come off a bit Polyannaish.
> By
> > all means, I too mean MOST of Yes's music. Talk
> is
> > definitely not one of my favorites for ex. Many
> of
> > their later stuff is not as inspired compared to
> > their '70s material.
> >
> > I do not wish to come off "positive" for
> positive's
> > sake. Nor do I wish to be "spiritual" for
> > spirituality's sake. I am simply expressing the
> > gratitude I feel for the very existence of Yes's
> > music in my life (which includes a lot of their
> > music, but of course not all).
> >
> > That said, I'm gonna playfully disagree with you
> > about - "I know we don't usually get into
> discussing
> > negatives here" - To me, Guy, spirituality is
> not
> > about either positives or negatives. It's bigger
> > than that. Broader. Higher, if you will. Beyond
> > words. I feel it contains +'s & -'s within it,
> yet
> > much more as well.
> >
> > Therefore, Yes's music too contains both
> positives
> > and negatives. As do the Partridge Family, the
> > Smithereens, the Who, etc., etc. (You get the
> idea)
> > So, for me, a feeling of gratitude, thankfully,
> > rises above either pos's or neg's.
> > Discussing negatives with a feeling of gratitude
> > (when I can) is cool. Said another way,
> discussing
> > negatives is not taboo in this group (or at
> least I
> > hope not).
> >
> > In appreciation,
> > Mark
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: guy_95037
> > To: WeHaveHeaven@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:02 PM
> > Subject: [WeHaveHeaven] Re: I love Yes music
> > because ...
> >
> >
> > Mark,
> > While I appreciate your overall positive
> outlook
> > regarding Yes
> > music, I tend to take a more critical,
> practical
> > approach. MOST of
> > Yes music I love. It is some of the best on
> the
> > planet, past or
> > present. But there have been some times when I
> > think their music was
> > not up to par and they got lost or derailed.
> I am
> > thinking mostly
> > of the 80s/Rabin era. This era was overlly
> > commercial and their
> > sound did change quite a bit. I feel the
> > positive, soul-searching
> > sounds and words of albums like TFTO and CttE
> took
> > a serious wrong
> > turn in the 80s. [I know some say that there
> > wouldn't be a Yes today
> > if it weren't for the 80s Yes revival, but
> that is
> > a different
> > topic.]
> >
> > I know a lot of people like 90125 and came to
> > discover Yes in that
> > era, but I can't stand that guitar shredder
> sound.
> > It sounds like
> > Journey or one of their clones to me. I think
> Big
> > Generator is a
> > particular low point too. Listen to the
> words:
> > "move to the left,
> > move to the right..." Sounds like the Hokey
> Pokey
> > to me.
> >
> > Anyway, I know we don't usually get into
> > discussing negatives here,
> > but I thought some temperance was in order.
> >
> > Guy
> >
> > --- In WeHaveHeaven@yahoogroups.com, "Mark
> Smith"
>
=== message truncated ===
Guy DeRome
guyderome@...
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