Penelope
cell: 516-835-9860

A Small Company In America
ASCIA - Theatre-In-Residence at NYIT
www.asmallcompany.org
516-686-7894


_________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A month ago, some of us started talking about Lyre work with younger children. 
We're looking forward to Pam posting some thoughts on this and perhaps Jason, as
you've been using them for awhile.  I'm sure there are others who can recommend
exercises, songs and which instruments you feel good about. I hope a lively
discussion can start up.  Please jump in with a few words even if you don't have
time for much.
Thanks, Carol

Dear Friends,
Christof Weichert will be presenting a short conference in Marin County (through
Bay Area Center for Waldorf Teacher Training) after the Western Waldorf
Teachers' Confernce.  It is only $35!  BACWTT needs to have your registration by
Oct. 10 as there is a minimum of 250 participants for the conference to go
forward.  Go to www.bacwtt.org
Many of you have heard Christof's lectures at the Fair Oaks conference.  I have
gotten to work with him on Child Study in my Teacher Training and at our Faculty
Retreat Meetings this year.  He is brilliant, irreverent, humorous and... a
violinist!
It would great to have a musical contingent at this conference.  I have a couch,
floor and sleeping bags for anyone wanting humble accomodations or I can
recommend hotels or hostel.
Thanks,
Carol

Hello!  Another call for comment!
A few years ago, after attending the Music Teachers' Conference, I spoke to our
incoming Grade 3 teacher about taking up C flutes rather than recorders.  As I
was new to C flutes, I shared the experience of others that C flutes had a
warmer more diffuse sound, were less individual and had a similar feeling to the
pentatonic flutes of Grades 1 and 2.  She was receptive and we began to work
with them.  Subsequent teachers were also receptive to C flutes.  At Andrea's
suggestion, I introduced alto recorder in Grade 5, carrying it into Grade 6.  At
my school, Grade 6 has orchestra twice a week but Music only once.  The class
teacher must carry most of the singing and recorder during ML.

The original C flute class has now reached 6th grade.  They are not very skilled
at the alto yet, although they are very musical and really enjoy string
instruments in orchestra.  Their class teacher is skilled at recorder so will
probably be able to carry them into consort playing, if I focus on it as well. 
The previous 2 sixth grades did not play alto with their class teachers much and
only did a little bit of consort with me.

I now have 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade teachers who did soprano recorder with their
previous classes.  The 1st grade teacher (comingfrom a different school) is used
to doing a LOT of recorder with her class, starting in 3rd grade leading to
consort playing and some students taking up flute, clarinet and sax.  She
discussed this with Brien Masters in Dornach.  He was not convinced that Choroi
instruments were a clear choice, indicating a concern that the commercial side
(people pushing sales) might have been a factor in their acceptance.  Also,
since she was teaching in Hawaii where mold is rampant, she used only plastic
instruments.

Since I have not created a Program description that designates diatonic flute as
the 3rd grade instrument, I feel there is flexibility to go with the Class
teachers' wishes.  However, I feel the diatonic flute has been a worthy
experience for our students even if their recorder skills have not developed as
far and not ready to abandon them just for someone's convenience. (Class
teachers often find C flute difficult to play.)

I am planning to meet with these 3 teachers to discuss their interests in the 2
instruments and would appreciate hearing from any of you with experience in
either or both directions. I still have wooden soprano recorders from previous
years and can order plastic Yamaha Rottenburghs for the 6th grade for not too
much if we decide to give wooden sopranos to 3rd grade.  I would like to have
the fullest picture possible when going into this conversation.  Please give me
your thoughts at the earliest opportunity.
Thanks,
Carol

Hi Carol,

I can weigh in on this discussion but I will preface it by saying that there are
many different ways that this is being approached in different schools and I can
share what has worked for me and why I have taken this approach.

At our school, the children do use the diatonic Choroi flutes in grades 3, 4 and
5.  This follows their previous experence with the pentatonic flute in grade 2
and sometimes the end of grade 1 and the Choroi interval flutes in grade 1.

The diatonic C flutes are introduced by me in music class but I encourage the
class teachers to take them up as well and work with them with their students if
they are willing and able.

When I first started teaching music I was not so convinced about the value of
the diatonic C flutes and I had the 3rd graders start on the recorder.  At the
same time I was enrolled in the Sunbridge music course and working with Jana
Hawley and Par Ahlbom I received some valuable insights and experience with the
Choroi instruments.

Consequently, the following year I switched to the diatonic flutes and have been
using them ever since.  Here is why I use them:

1.  The tone they produce is less directed and focused than the recorder and
consequently more pleasing and, I believe, more healthful on the ears of the
younger children.

2.  The embouchure (position of mouth on instrument) is more open than with the
recorder which I also believe is more healthful.  In working with Par Ahlbom,
who is one of the creators of the Choroi instruments, we were taught the proper
embouchure which is to put the mouth all around the top of the instrument with
teeth on the outside of the top (hard to explain with words), so the mouth is
quite round and relaxed.  Then the instrument is pulled gently towards the body
which results in what Par calls "flute face" where the mouth is round and the
jaw is released.  Similar to singing, this kind of opening of the jaw can be
very theraputic.  In addition, rather than tonguing, on the Choroi instruments
we work with more of a glottal stop which occurs in the back of the throat.  I
don't explain this technical aspect to the children.  It happens naturally when
the embouchure is correct.  Again, when done correctly the breathing and
position of the mouth more resemble singing and, I believe, are more free than
what is used later on with the recorder.

3.  I very much like the fact the the Choroi C flute uses all fingers and that
you can play the scale sequentially without having the "forked" fingering that
the recorder uses to play F natural.  Because of this, it is very natural to
teach note-reading with the C flute and it is also very helpful for the children
who are still coming into their fingers and hands.  All fingers are used and
there is a symmetry to it.

All that being said, I have also experienced some beautiful recorder playing the
lower grades when the teacher brings it in a very specific way.  Elizabeth
Kokkebacker (sp?) in Toronto begins with recorders in grade 1 and works very
diligently with quiet and beautiful tones so that the children do not overblow
or play with a tense sound or mouth.

Other issues that can arise with the C flutes are the extra expense (yet another
instrument!) and, yes, they can be hard to play especially in the lower range. 
However, I find the care that it takes to produce a good tone and clear notes
can be very important work for the children (and perhaps we teachers also!). 
The type of breath that goes into the instrument is very important.  Overblowing
does not work.

In closing, I do introduce recorders in 6th grade and allow the students to
choose soprano, alto, tenor or bass recorder.  At that age they generally can
learn the instrument and the new fingerings and note reading fairly easily and
we dive into consort playing right away.  I don't find that the students get
confused from the differences between the C flute and the recorder.

Also, I use plastic recorders (Yamaha) after first trying wooden.  Being a
Waldorf teacher I at first thought that only wood would be correct but after
experiencing the clearer tone and much more consistent intonation of the plastic
instruments, I switched.  My understanding is that plastic recorders (good ones)
are used at many Waldorf schools for the reasons that I mentioned and perhaps
other reasons as well.

Thank you Carol for opening up this discussion.  I am happy to make my first
official post on this site.  I have appreciated all the other posts and
especially Carol's many wonderful offerings.

With warm regards,
Monika Sutherland, Music Teacher

Pleasant Ridge Waldorf School
Viroqua, Wisconsin



--- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, "marinwaldorfmusique" <bamboorose@...> wrote:
>
> Hello!  Another call for comment!
> A few years ago, after attending the Music Teachers' Conference, I spoke to
our incoming Grade 3 teacher about taking up C flutes rather than recorders.  As
I was new to C flutes, I shared the experience of others that C flutes had a
warmer more diffuse sound, were less individual and had a similar feeling to the
pentatonic flutes of Grades 1 and 2.  She was receptive and we began to work
with them.  Subsequent teachers were also receptive to C flutes.  At Andrea's
suggestion, I introduced alto recorder in Grade 5, carrying it into Grade 6.  At
my school, Grade 6 has orchestra twice a week but Music only once.  The class
teacher must carry most of the singing and recorder during ML.
>
> The original C flute class has now reached 6th grade.  They are not very
skilled at the alto yet, although they are very musical and really enjoy string
instruments in orchestra.  Their class teacher is skilled at recorder so will
probably be able to carry them into consort playing, if I focus on it as well. 
The previous 2 sixth grades did not play alto with their class teachers much and
only did a little bit of consort with me.
>
> I now have 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade teachers who did soprano recorder with their
previous classes.  The 1st grade teacher (comingfrom a different school) is used
to doing a LOT of recorder with her class, starting in 3rd grade leading to
consort playing and some students taking up flute, clarinet and sax.  She
discussed this with Brien Masters in Dornach.  He was not convinced that Choroi
instruments were a clear choice, indicating a concern that the commercial side
(people pushing sales) might have been a factor in their acceptance.  Also,
since she was teaching in Hawaii where mold is rampant, she used only plastic
instruments.
>
> Since I have not created a Program description that designates diatonic flute
as the 3rd grade instrument, I feel there is flexibility to go with the Class
teachers' wishes.  However, I feel the diatonic flute has been a worthy
experience for our students even if their recorder skills have not developed as
far and not ready to abandon them just for someone's convenience. (Class
teachers often find C flute difficult to play.)
>
> I am planning to meet with these 3 teachers to discuss their interests in the
2 instruments and would appreciate hearing from any of you with experience in
either or both directions. I still have wooden soprano recorders from previous
years and can order plastic Yamaha Rottenburghs for the 6th grade for not too
much if we decide to give wooden sopranos to 3rd grade.  I would like to have
the fullest picture possible when going into this conversation.  Please give me
your thoughts at the earliest opportunity.
> Thanks,
> Carol
>

--- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, "marinwaldorfmusique" <bamboorose@...> wrote:
>
> Hello!  Another call for comment!
> A few years ago, after attending the Music Teachers' Conference, I spoke to
our incoming Grade 3 teacher about taking up C flutes rather than recorders.  As
I was new to C flutes, I shared the experience of others that C flutes had a
warmer more diffuse sound, were less individual and had a similar feeling to the
pentatonic flutes of Grades 1 and 2.  She was receptive and we began to work
with them.  Subsequent teachers were also receptive to C flutes.  At Andrea's
suggestion, I introduced alto recorder in Grade 5, carrying it into Grade 6.  At
my school, Grade 6 has orchestra twice a week but Music only once.  The class
teacher must carry most of the singing and recorder during ML.
>
> The original C flute class has now reached 6th grade.  They are not very
skilled at the alto yet, although they are very musical and really enjoy string
instruments in orchestra.  Their class teacher is skilled at recorder so will
probably be able to carry them into consort playing, if I focus on it as well. 
The previous 2 sixth grades did not play alto with their class teachers much and
only did a little bit of consort with me.
>
> I now have 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade teachers who did soprano recorder with their
previous classes.  The 1st grade teacher (comingfrom a different school) is used
to doing a LOT of recorder with her class, starting in 3rd grade leading to
consort playing and some students taking up flute, clarinet and sax.  She
discussed this with Brien Masters in Dornach.  He was not convinced that Choroi
instruments were a clear choice, indicating a concern that the commercial side
(people pushing sales) might have been a factor in their acceptance.  Also,
since she was teaching in Hawaii where mold is rampant, she used only plastic
instruments.
>
> Since I have not created a Program description that designates diatonic flute
as the 3rd grade instrument, I feel there is flexibility to go with the Class
teachers' wishes.  However, I feel the diatonic flute has been a worthy
experience for our students even if their recorder skills have not developed as
far and not ready to abandon them just for someone's convenience. (Class
teachers often find C flute difficult to play.)
>
> I am planning to meet with these 3 teachers to discuss their interests in the
2 instruments and would appreciate hearing from any of you with experience in
either or both directions. I still have wooden soprano recorders from previous
years and can order plastic Yamaha Rottenburghs for the 6th grade for not too
much if we decide to give wooden sopranos to 3rd grade.  I would like to have
the fullest picture possible when going into this conversation.  Please give me
your thoughts at the earliest opportunity.
> Thanks,
> Carol
>
Hi, Carol,
Over the years, having studied with Par Albohm, one of the creators of the
Choroi flutes in the early 60's, I have heard the reasons and impulses behind
their creation and use. It is my understanding, both from him and other
experienced Waldorf music teachers, that children simply do NOT hear the same
way that we adults do. This is also supported by what Steiner says in some of
his texts (I would have to locate them). The recorder was meant to be played as
a solo instrument or in small consort setting. During the middle ages and the
Renaissance, it was used in this way. It was NEVER intended to be played by a
large group of children. The very rich overtones of the recorder are far more
penetrating in their sound production than the Choroi flutes, which have a
completely cylindrical bore rather than that of a conical bore like recorders.
These intense overtones can actually harm the inner ear that is not yet
developed enough to filter out that which can be harmfulto the still developing
ear. This information comes from both anthroposophical doctors, as well as, the
experienced master teachers I mentioned earlier. The more diffused tone of the
flutes is more in keeping with how the child actually hears sound and so, to me,
it seems more appropriate to use.I find more and more that many adults just do
not want to do anything different than what they themselves are familiar with
and therefore feel more competent with. Most adults learned to play the recorder
themselves when they were in grade school and so they continue the pattern.
Personally, in my 18 years of teaching Waldorf music education, I find that the
Choroi C flute is much easier for the children to learn than recorder because it
is designed logically and sequentially, rather than the recorders which have
some forked fingerings which are abstract and not set up representationaly ie.
on the flute, each hole is the next tone in the scale, whereas on a recorder,
forked fingerings must be employed. when there are accidentals, then new
fingerings are employed. I have never had any children say that they find it
difficult - only adults!  And after all, it IS the children for whom we are
doing this, right? When it IS appropriate to switch over to recorders,I have
found that there are some very excellent plastic recorders that have a better
tone than cheap wooden ones. And since our highest goal should be to provide
quality musical experiences for the children, it is paramount to have
instruments that are in tune with a good tone quality. I did find some
fantastic!! wooden sopranos from Courtley Music that cost $43 and are superb for
use in the classroom. They are 2-piece, have great tone and stay in tune. I also
found some great plastic altos and tenors from there and I like them very much.
They are Yamaha brand. When the children do switch to the recorder, they are
ready for a new way of hearing, new challenges with the fingerings, and can
easily take up this new instrument. I have only found this to be true in grade 5
and up, however. I have seen teachers bring recorders in earlier, and many
children sit there with there ears covered - it is painful! Is this what we want
to do to children just because we ourselves know how to play and are comfortable
with the recorder or feel that the ONLY result of teaching them music is to
create skilled performers??????
Thanks for asking these questions.  As you can tell, I am an advocate of the
flutes versus the recorders - in the earlier grades. I absolutely love the
recorders and find that my classes do very well with them once we get started.
And they do NOT sit there covering their ears! This year, my grade 6, which
started with altos last year, are now playing soprano, alto and tenor and are
doing fine. It also depends on how much the class teacher works with them, too.
Some do and some don't. I look forward to more on this....
Andrea

--- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, "marinwaldorfmusique" <bamboorose@...> wrote:
>
> Hello!  Another call for comment!
> A few years ago, after attending the Music Teachers' Conference, I spoke to
our incoming Grade 3 teacher about taking up C flutes rather than recorders.  As
I was new to C flutes, I shared the experience of others that C flutes had a
warmer more diffuse sound, were less individual and had a similar feeling to the
pentatonic flutes of Grades 1 and 2.  She was receptive and we began to work
with them.  Subsequent teachers were also receptive to C flutes.  At Andrea's
suggestion, I introduced alto recorder in Grade 5, carrying it into Grade 6.  At
my school, Grade 6 has orchestra twice a week but Music only once.  The class
teacher must carry most of the singing and recorder during ML.
>
> The original C flute class has now reached 6th grade.  They are not very
skilled at the alto yet, although they are very musical and really enjoy string
instruments in orchestra.  Their class teacher is skilled at recorder so will
probably be able to carry them into consort playing, if I focus on it as well. 
The previous 2 sixth grades did not play alto with their class teachers much and
only did a little bit of consort with me.
>
> I now have 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade teachers who did soprano recorder with their
previous classes.  The 1st grade teacher (comingfrom a different school) is used
to doing a LOT of recorder with her class, starting in 3rd grade leading to
consort playing and some students taking up flute, clarinet and sax.  She
discussed this with Brien Masters in Dornach.  He was not convinced that Choroi
instruments were a clear choice, indicating a concern that the commercial side
(people pushing sales) might have been a factor in their acceptance.  Also,
since she was teaching in Hawaii where mold is rampant, she used only plastic
instruments.
>
> Since I have not created a Program description that designates diatonic flute
as the 3rd grade instrument, I feel there is flexibility to go with the Class
teachers' wishes.  However, I feel the diatonic flute has been a worthy
experience for our students even if their recorder skills have not developed as
far and not ready to abandon them just for someone's convenience. (Class
teachers often find C flute difficult to play.)
>
> I am planning to meet with these 3 teachers to discuss their interests in the
2 instruments and would appreciate hearing from any of you with experience in
either or both directions. I still have wooden soprano recorders from previous
years and can order plastic Yamaha Rottenburghs for the 6th grade for not too
much if we decide to give wooden sopranos to 3rd grade.  I would like to have
the fullest picture possible when going into this conversation.  Please give me
your thoughts at the earliest opportunity.
> Thanks,
> Carol
>
Hi, Carol,
Over the years, having studied with Par Albohm, one of the creators of the
Choroi flutes in the early 60's, I have heard the reasons and impulses behind
their creation and use. It is my understanding, both from him and other
experienced Waldorf music teachers, that children simply do NOT hear the same
way that we adults do. This is also supported by what Steiner says in some of
his texts (I would have to locate them). The recorder was meant to be played as
a solo instrument or in small consort setting. During the middle ages and the
Renaissance, it was used in this way. It was NEVER intended to be played by a
large group of children. The very rich overtones of the recorder are far more
penetrating in their sound production than the Choroi flutes, which have a
completely cylindrical bore rather than that of a conical bore like recorders.
These intense overtones can actually harm the inner ear that is not yet
developed enough to filter out that which can be harmfulto the still developing
ear. This information comes from both anthroposophical doctors, as well as, the
experienced master teachers I mentioned earlier. The more diffused tone of the
flutes is more in keeping with how the child actually hears sound and so, to me,
it seems more appropriate to use.I find more and more that many adults just do
not want to do anything different than what they themselves are familiar with
and therefore feel more competent with. Most adults learned to play the recorder
themselves when they were in grade school and so they continue the pattern.
Personally, in my 18 years of teaching Waldorf music education, I find that the
Choroi C flute is much easier for the children to learn than recorder because it
is designed logically and sequentially, rather than the recorders which have
some forked fingerings which are abstract and not set up representationaly ie.
on the flute, each hole is the next tone in the scale, whereas on a recorder,
forked fingerings must be employed. when there are accidentals, then new
fingerings are employed. I have never had any children say that they find it
difficult - only adults!  And after all, it IS the children for whom we are
doing this, right? When it IS appropriate to switch over to recorders,I have
found that there are some very excellent plastic recorders that have a better
tone than cheap wooden ones. And since our highest goal should be to provide
quality musical experiences for the children, it is paramount to have
instruments that are in tune with a good tone quality. I did find some
fantastic!! wooden sopranos from Courtley Music that cost $43 and are superb for
use in the classroom. They are 2-piece, have great tone and stay in tune. I also
found some great plastic altos and tenors from there and I like them very much.
They are Yamaha brand. When the children do switch to the recorder, they are
ready for a new way of hearing, new challenges with the fingerings, and can
easily take up this new instrument. I have only found this to be true in grade 5
and up, however. I have seen teachers bring recorders in earlier, and many
children sit there with there ears covered - it is painful! Is this what we want
to do to children just because we ourselves know how to play and are comfortable
with the recorder or feel that the ONLY result of teaching them music is to
create skilled performers??????
Thanks for asking these questions.  As you can tell, I am an advocate of the
flutes versus the recorders - in the earlier grades. I absolutely love the
recorders and find that my classes do very well with them once we get started.
And they do NOT sit there covering their ears! This year, my grade 6, which
started with altos last year, are now playing soprano, alto and tenor and are
doing fine. It also depends on how much the class teacher works with them, too.
Some do and some don't. I look forward to more on this....
Andrea

--- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, "marinwaldorfmusique" <bamboorose@...> wrote:
>
> A month ago, some of us started talking about Lyre work with younger children.
We're looking forward to Pam posting some thoughts on this and perhaps Jason, as
you've been using them for awhile.  I'm sure there are others who can recommend
exercises, songs and which instruments you feel good about. I hope a lively
discussion can start up.  Please jump in with a few words even if you don't have
time for much.
> Thanks, Carol
>
I myself would like to do more lyre study as the little I have done and what I
have done with the children is remarkable! The person who is the absolute QUEEN
of lyre work pedagogically is Sheila Johns. She teaches at the Washington
Waldorf School and is truly a master lyre teacher and includes therapeutic work
with it. She really has penetrated the pedagogy of working with the lyre and she
is a great resource for materials, suggestions, etc. Andrea

Carol,
You should send this info to Jason to put on our general website!  I want to
have every conference, class, workshop, seminar, etc. on there if possible.
The more the better!!!
Andrea


*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
"Ah music. A magic beyond all we do here."
-  J.K. Rowling


On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 5:45 PM, marinwaldorfmusique <
bamboorose@...> wrote:

>
>
> Dear Friends,
> Christof Weichert will be presenting a short conference in Marin County
> (through Bay Area Center for Waldorf Teacher Training) after the Western
> Waldorf Teachers' Confernce. It is only $35! BACWTT needs to have your
> registration by Oct. 10 as there is a minimum of 250 participants for the
> conference to go forward. Go to www.bacwtt.org
> Many of you have heard Christof's lectures at the Fair Oaks conference. I
> have gotten to work with him on Child Study in my Teacher Training and at
> our Faculty Retreat Meetings this year. He is brilliant, irreverent,
> humorous and... a violinist!
> It would great to have a musical contingent at this conference. I have a
> couch, floor and sleeping bags for anyone wanting humble accomodations or I
> can recommend hotels or hostel.
> Thanks,
> Carol
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There has been much discussion over the years at our school re: the use of C
flutes, pentatonic flutes, and recorders.   The progression was grades 1 and 2
played pentatonic flute, grades 3 and 4 C flutes, and grades 5 and 6 recorders,
grade 6 in consort.  Last year this was challenged by an incoming class one
teacher and now we are introducing the C flute immediately in grade one and
using it through grade 4. A number of us felt the pentatonic flute was an
unnecessary expense for the parents, and required learning a new fingering.  The
grade one and two students are managing very well with the C flute (playing
pentatonic tunes of course)
As the music specialist, I work somewhat with the flutes in the final months of
grade 2, and then in more detail in grade 3 as a tool for reading music, and
from then on as an integrated part of the program.  I do feel that the grade 5
classes are ready for alto recorders and would love to introduce soprano
recorder in grade 4, and alto in grade 5, but this is for a future discussion at
my school.
I totally am in favor of the C flute.  It has a similar fingering to recorder
and prepares the students well for recorder work.  The sound is mellow and
sweet, with less overtones.  The tuning is more precise.
All class teachers use the flutes and recorders in main lesson work, at least to
grade 5, although traditionally they haven't worked much with reading music
notation, but have left me to teach this in music class.
The students move to band in grade 7 (our school only goes to grade 9)
Ruth Lomenda - Calgary Waldorf
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: marinwaldorfmusique
   To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 10:02 PM
   Subject: [anawme] Recorders and C flutes


     Hello! Another call for comment!
   A few years ago, after attending the Music Teachers' Conference, I spoke to
our incoming Grade 3 teacher about taking up C flutes rather than recorders. As
I was new to C flutes, I shared the experience of others that C flutes had a
warmer more diffuse sound, were less individual and had a similar feeling to the
pentatonic flutes of Grades 1 and 2. She was receptive and we began to work with
them. Subsequent teachers were also receptive to C flutes. At Andrea's
suggestion, I introduced alto recorder in Grade 5, carrying it into Grade 6. At
my school, Grade 6 has orchestra twice a week but Music only once. The class
teacher must carry most of the singing and recorder during ML.

   The original C flute class has now reached 6th grade. They are not very
skilled at the alto yet, although they are very musical and really enjoy string
instruments in orchestra. Their class teacher is skilled at recorder so will
probably be able to carry them into consort playing, if I focus on it as well.
The previous 2 sixth grades did not play alto with their class teachers much and
only did a little bit of consort with me.

   I now have 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade teachers who did soprano recorder with their
previous classes. The 1st grade teacher (comingfrom a different school) is used
to doing a LOT of recorder with her class, starting in 3rd grade leading to
consort playing and some students taking up flute, clarinet and sax. She
discussed this with Brien Masters in Dornach. He was not convinced that Choroi
instruments were a clear choice, indicating a concern that the commercial side
(people pushing sales) might have been a factor in their acceptance. Also, since
she was teaching in Hawaii where mold is rampant, she used only plastic
instruments.

   Since I have not created a Program description that designates diatonic flute
as the 3rd grade instrument, I feel there is flexibility to go with the Class
teachers' wishes. However, I feel the diatonic flute has been a worthy
experience for our students even if their recorder skills have not developed as
far and not ready to abandon them just for someone's convenience. (Class
teachers often find C flute difficult to play.)

   I am planning to meet with these 3 teachers to discuss their interests in the
2 instruments and would appreciate hearing from any of you with experience in
either or both directions. I still have wooden soprano recorders from previous
years and can order plastic Yamaha Rottenburghs for the 6th grade for not too
much if we decide to give wooden sopranos to 3rd grade. I would like to have the
fullest picture possible when going into this conversation. Please give me your
thoughts at the earliest opportunity.
   Thanks,
   Carol








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am happy to hear about your experiences with students and instruments.  Thank
you so much for taking the time to write about this subject.
Although they sometimes have trouble covering the holes, c flute has come easily
for most of my students.  Pentatonic flute can be quite challenging for them,
even in the 2nd grade.  The non-hole fingers are confusing for some students. 
Any suggestions for games, exercises, songs, etc. for pentatonic would be
appreciated.
Sitting in a circle is not always the best for my students as the ones on the
sides have trouble seeing.  Of course, the desks ("child traps" as Par once
said) get in the way and keep the 3rd row at a great distance.
Some students need individual help to cover the holes and coordinate the
fingers.  I sometimes have a short time when the students draw a picture from a
song or story while I work with individuals.  Do you have ways to bring in the
students who are confused or frustrated?
Thanks,
Carol

--- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, "Ruth Lomenda" <rlom@...> wrote:
>
> There has been much discussion over the years at our school re: the use of C
flutes, pentatonic flutes, and recorders.   The progression was grades 1 and 2
played pentatonic flute, grades 3 and 4 C flutes, and grades 5 and 6 recorders,
grade 6 in consort.  Last year this was challenged by an incoming class one
teacher and now we are introducing the C flute immediately in grade one and
using it through grade 4. A number of us felt the pentatonic flute was an
unnecessary expense for the parents, and required learning a new fingering.  The
grade one and two students are managing very well with the C flute (playing
pentatonic tunes of course)
> As the music specialist, I work somewhat with the flutes in the final months
of grade 2, and then in more detail in grade 3 as a tool for reading music, and
from then on as an integrated part of the program.  I do feel that the grade 5
classes are ready for alto recorders and would love to introduce soprano
recorder in grade 4, and alto in grade 5, but this is for a future discussion at
my school.
> I totally am in favor of the C flute.  It has a similar fingering to recorder
and prepares the students well for recorder work.  The sound is mellow and
sweet, with less overtones.  The tuning is more precise.
> All class teachers use the flutes and recorders in main lesson work, at least
to grade 5, although traditionally they haven't worked much with reading music
notation, but have left me to teach this in music class.
> The students move to band in grade 7 (our school only goes to grade 9)
> Ruth Lomenda - Calgary Waldorf
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: marinwaldorfmusique
>   To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 10:02 PM
>   Subject: [anawme] Recorders and C flutes
>
>
>     Hello! Another call for comment!
>   A few years ago, after attending the Music Teachers' Conference, I spoke to
our incoming Grade 3 teacher about taking up C flutes rather than recorders. As
I was new to C flutes, I shared the experience of others that C flutes had a
warmer more diffuse sound, were less individual and had a similar feeling to the
pentatonic flutes of Grades 1 and 2. She was receptive and we began to work with
them. Subsequent teachers were also receptive to C flutes. At Andrea's
suggestion, I introduced alto recorder in Grade 5, carrying it into Grade 6. At
my school, Grade 6 has orchestra twice a week but Music only once. The class
teacher must carry most of the singing and recorder during ML.
>
>   The original C flute class has now reached 6th grade. They are not very
skilled at the alto yet, although they are very musical and really enjoy string
instruments in orchestra. Their class teacher is skilled at recorder so will
probably be able to carry them into consort playing, if I focus on it as well.
The previous 2 sixth grades did not play alto with their class teachers much and
only did a little bit of consort with me.
>
>   I now have 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade teachers who did soprano recorder with
their previous classes. The 1st grade teacher (comingfrom a different school) is
used to doing a LOT of recorder with her class, starting in 3rd grade leading to
consort playing and some students taking up flute, clarinet and sax. She
discussed this with Brien Masters in Dornach. He was not convinced that Choroi
instruments were a clear choice, indicating a concern that the commercial side
(people pushing sales) might have been a factor in their acceptance. Also, since
she was teaching in Hawaii where mold is rampant, she used only plastic
instruments.
>
>   Since I have not created a Program description that designates diatonic
flute as the 3rd grade instrument, I feel there is flexibility to go with the
Class teachers' wishes. However, I feel the diatonic flute has been a worthy
experience for our students even if their recorder skills have not developed as
far and not ready to abandon them just for someone's convenience. (Class
teachers often find C flute difficult to play.)
>
>   I am planning to meet with these 3 teachers to discuss their interests in
the 2 instruments and would appreciate hearing from any of you with experience
in either or both directions. I still have wooden soprano recorders from
previous years and can order plastic Yamaha Rottenburghs for the 6th grade for
not too much if we decide to give wooden sopranos to 3rd grade. I would like to
have the fullest picture possible when going into this conversation. Please give
me your thoughts at the earliest opportunity.
>   Thanks,
>   Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>   Database version: 5.11910
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>
Our school owns all of our pentatonic and interval flutes and we have the
parents only buy the C-flutes in grade 3.  They are told about it at the onset
so that they can save up if they need to and we consider it a class expense that
they know about ahead of time. In the beginning years, we had the parents buy
the pentatonic AND the C-flutes and after a few years, the school bought the
pentatonics from the parents at a reduced cost. So the parents got some of their
money back, the school got pentatonic flutes for a reduced price and after 2
years, we were able to have enough for everyone and the parents just purchased
the C-flutes. We ended up having to buy af ew more pentatonics when the classes
got larger, but all in all, it has been a great thing. We use interval flutes in
Grade 1 for about 2/3 of the year.  It is difficult enough for them to manage
with one hole, holding the flute properly, getting their left and right hands
established, correct mouth position, following directions - I can't even imaging
giving a first grade a flute with 9 holes!!! And while it is good that you are
only using pentatonic music with them, what about the horrible dissonance of
accidentally playing the c's or f's? That is one beauty of the pentatonic flutes
- no notes sound "bad" together. And in grade one, we are really trying to bring
mood of the fifth music experiences, which all pentatonic songs are NOT! This is
a greatly misunderstood topic - mood of the fifth. Maybe we can talk about this
in another conversation. I'd be interested to hear more about how you bring the
C-flute in grade one, how you keep this mood of the fifth gesture with them, how
you get them to play only the pentatonic tones, etc. I would also highly
recommend that your school consider owning the pentatonic flutes if that is the
only reason that you bring C-flutes right away in grade one!!!! I'm looking
forward to hearing more.....

...also, I don't see that using the C-flute as preparation for playing the
recorder is important, in regards to fingering. First of all, this seems to
imply that the recorder is a "real" instrument and the Choroi flutes are just
little practice instruments. And, as for different fingering, yes, the different
flutes HAVE different fingering, which is very helpful in bringing them into
their incarnation "right down to their fingertips", as Steiner indicates. A new
instrument, a new fingering. Just as they learn different techniques in
handwork, there is a new instrument (kniting needle, crochet hoodk, etc.) to
hold, a new way to stitch, etc. This is one of the reasons we even use the
flutes in the grades.  I find when I read and re-read Steiner's indications on
child development and all the discussions he had with teachers, I gain a clearer
understanding of why we do what we do. These are topics we constantly discuss
again and again during our summer music teacher conferences and here in these
conversations. How great is is that we have the opportunity to connect in this
way!

--- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, "Ruth Lomenda" <rlom@...> wrote:
>
> There has been much discussion over the years at our school re: the use of C
flutes, pentatonic flutes, and recorders.   The progression was grades 1 and 2
played pentatonic flute, grades 3 and 4 C flutes, and grades 5 and 6 recorders,
grade 6 in consort.  Last year this was challenged by an incoming class one
teacher and now we are introducing the C flute immediately in grade one and
using it through grade 4. A number of us felt the pentatonic flute was an
unnecessary expense for the parents, and required learning a new fingering.  The
grade one and two students are managing very well with the C flute (playing
pentatonic tunes of course)
> As the music specialist, I work somewhat with the flutes in the final months
of grade 2, and then in more detail in grade 3 as a tool for reading music, and
from then on as an integrated part of the program.  I do feel that the grade 5
classes are ready for alto recorders and would love to introduce soprano
recorder in grade 4, and alto in grade 5, but this is for a future discussion at
my school.
> I totally am in favor of the C flute.  It has a similar fingering to recorder
and prepares the students well for recorder work.  The sound is mellow and
sweet, with less overtones.  The tuning is more precise.
> All class teachers use the flutes and recorders in main lesson work, at least
to grade 5, although traditionally they haven't worked much with reading music
notation, but have left me to teach this in music class.
> The students move to band in grade 7 (our school only goes to grade 9)
> Ruth Lomenda - Calgary Waldorf
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: marinwaldorfmusique
>   To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 10:02 PM
>   Subject: [anawme] Recorders and C flutes
>
>
>     Hello! Another call for comment!
>   A few years ago, after attending the Music Teachers' Conference, I spoke to
our incoming Grade 3 teacher about taking up C flutes rather than recorders. As
I was new to C flutes, I shared the experience of others that C flutes had a
warmer more diffuse sound, were less individual and had a similar feeling to the
pentatonic flutes of Grades 1 and 2. She was receptive and we began to work with
them. Subsequent teachers were also receptive to C flutes. At Andrea's
suggestion, I introduced alto recorder in Grade 5, carrying it into Grade 6. At
my school, Grade 6 has orchestra twice a week but Music only once. The class
teacher must carry most of the singing and recorder during ML.
>
>   The original C flute class has now reached 6th grade. They are not very
skilled at the alto yet, although they are very musical and really enjoy string
instruments in orchestra. Their class teacher is skilled at recorder so will
probably be able to carry them into consort playing, if I focus on it as well.
The previous 2 sixth grades did not play alto with their class teachers much and
only did a little bit of consort with me.
>
>   I now have 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade teachers who did soprano recorder with
their previous classes. The 1st grade teacher (comingfrom a different school) is
used to doing a LOT of recorder with her class, starting in 3rd grade leading to
consort playing and some students taking up flute, clarinet and sax. She
discussed this with Brien Masters in Dornach. He was not convinced that Choroi
instruments were a clear choice, indicating a concern that the commercial side
(people pushing sales) might have been a factor in their acceptance. Also, since
she was teaching in Hawaii where mold is rampant, she used only plastic
instruments.
>
>   Since I have not created a Program description that designates diatonic
flute as the 3rd grade instrument, I feel there is flexibility to go with the
Class teachers' wishes. However, I feel the diatonic flute has been a worthy
experience for our students even if their recorder skills have not developed as
far and not ready to abandon them just for someone's convenience. (Class
teachers often find C flute difficult to play.)
>
>   I am planning to meet with these 3 teachers to discuss their interests in
the 2 instruments and would appreciate hearing from any of you with experience
in either or both directions. I still have wooden soprano recorders from
previous years and can order plastic Yamaha Rottenburghs for the 6th grade for
not too much if we decide to give wooden sopranos to 3rd grade. I would like to
have the fullest picture possible when going into this conversation. Please give
me your thoughts at the earliest opportunity.
>   Thanks,
>   Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
>   Database version: 5.11910
>   http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/
>
>
>
>
> E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
> Database version: 5.11910
> http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I definitely don't feel the choroi flutes are not "real"! They are gorgeous
instruments!
For some who are challenged and somewhat frustrated with an instruments,I do
feel changing fingering each year may inhibit the development of musicality and
ability to feel one with their instrument.

----- Original Message -----
From: anawme_founder <themusicpainter@...>
Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 11:46 am
Subject: [anawme] Re: Recorders and C flutes
To: anawme@yahoogroups.com

>
> ...also, I don't see that using the C-flute as preparation for
> playing the recorder is important, in regards to fingering.
> First of all, this seems to imply that the recorder is a "real"
> instrument and the Choroi flutes are just little practice
> instruments. And, as for different fingering, yes, the different
> flutes HAVE different fingering, which is very helpful in
> bringing them into their incarnation "right down to their
> fingertips", as Steiner indicates. A new instrument, a new
> fingering. Just as they learn different techniques in handwork,
> there is a new instrument (kniting needle, crochet hoodk, etc.)
> to hold, a new way to stitch, etc. This is one of the reasons we
> even use the flutes in the grades.  I find when I read and
> re-read Steiner's indications on child development and all the
> discussions he had with teachers, I gain a clearer understanding
> of why we do what we do. These are topics we constantly discuss
> again and again during our summer music teacher conferences and
> here in these conversations. How great is is that we have the
> opportunity to connect in this way!
>
> --- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, "Ruth Lomenda" <rlom@...> wrote:
> >
> > There has been much discussion over the years at our school
> re: the use of C flutes, pentatonic flutes, and
> recorders.   The progression was grades 1 and 2 played
> pentatonic flute, grades 3 and 4 C flutes, and grades 5 and 6
> recorders, grade 6 in consort.  Last year this was
> challenged by an incoming class one teacher and now we are
> introducing the C flute immediately in grade one and using it
> through grade 4. A number of us felt the pentatonic flute was an
> unnecessary expense for the parents, and required learning a new
> fingering.  The grade one and two students are managing
> very well with the C flute (playing pentatonic tunes of course)
> > As the music specialist, I work somewhat with the flutes in
> the final months of grade 2, and then in more detail in grade 3
> as a tool for reading music, and from then on as an integrated
> part of the program.  I do feel that the grade 5 classes
> are ready for alto recorders and would love to introduce soprano
> recorder in grade 4, and alto in grade 5, but this is for a
> future discussion at my school.
> > I totally am in favor of the C flute.  It has a similar
> fingering to recorder and prepares the students well for
> recorder work.  The sound is mellow and sweet, with less
> overtones.  The tuning is more precise.
> > All class teachers use the flutes and recorders in main lesson
> work, at least to grade 5, although traditionally they haven't
> worked much with reading music notation, but have left me to
> teach this in music class.
> > The students move to band in grade 7 (our school only goes to
> grade 9)
> > Ruth Lomenda - Calgary Waldorf
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: marinwaldorfmusique
> >   To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
> >   Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 10:02 PM
> >   Subject: [anawme] Recorders and C flutes
> >
> >
> >     Hello! Another call for comment!
> >   A few years ago, after attending the Music
> Teachers' Conference, I spoke to our incoming Grade 3 teacher
> about taking up C flutes rather than recorders. As I was new to
> C flutes, I shared the experience of others that C flutes had a
> warmer more diffuse sound, were less individual and had a
> similar feeling to the pentatonic flutes of Grades 1 and 2. She
> was receptive and we began to work with them. Subsequent
> teachers were also receptive to C flutes. At Andrea's
> suggestion, I introduced alto recorder in Grade 5, carrying it
> into Grade 6. At my school, Grade 6 has orchestra twice a week
> but Music only once. The class teacher must carry most of the
> singing and recorder during ML.
> >
> >   The original C flute class has now reached 6th
> grade. They are not very skilled at the alto yet, although they
> are very musical and really enjoy string instruments in
> orchestra. Their class teacher is skilled at recorder so will
> probably be able to carry them into consort playing, if I focus
> on it as well. The previous 2 sixth grades did not play alto
> with their class teachers much and only did a little bit of
> consort with me.
> >
> >   I now have 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade teachers who did
> soprano recorder with their previous classes. The 1st grade
> teacher (comingfrom a different school) is used to doing a LOT
> of recorder with her class, starting in 3rd grade leading to
> consort playing and some students taking up flute, clarinet and
> sax. She discussed this with Brien Masters in Dornach. He was
> not convinced that Choroi instruments were a clear choice,
> indicating a concern that the commercial side (people pushing
> sales) might have been a factor in their acceptance. Also, since
> she was teaching in Hawaii where mold is rampant, she used only
> plastic instruments.
> >
> >   Since I have not created a Program description
> that designates diatonic flute as the 3rd grade instrument, I
> feel there is flexibility to go with the Class teachers' wishes.
> However, I feel the diatonic flute has been a worthy experience
> for our students even if their recorder skills have not
> developed as far and not ready to abandon them just for
> someone's convenience. (Class teachers often find C flute
> difficult to play.)
> >
> >   I am planning to meet with these 3 teachers to
> discuss their interests in the 2 instruments and would
> appreciate hearing from any of you with experience in either or
> both directions. I still have wooden soprano recorders from
> previous years and can order plastic Yamaha Rottenburghs for the
> 6th grade for not too much if we decide to give wooden sopranos
> to 3rd grade. I would like to have the fullest picture possible
> when going into this conversation. Please give me your thoughts
> at the earliest opportunity.
> >   Thanks,
> >   Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor
> (6.0.0.386)>   Database version: 5.11910
> >   http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
> > Database version: 5.11910
> > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I always use a flute holding song (that I wrote) that indicates which fingers
are holding fingers and so on and we sing it every class until they beg NOT to
sing it, which means that they don't need it anymore. And I have them learn the
notes from the top down and I don't add the next one until they are secure. If
it seems like they are not, I back up one note. I know of a teacher who has put
those little colored rubber bands on her students' holding fingers and she said
it really made a difference. I talk about imaginary special flute glue on those
fingers. I'm sure there are many other great ideas for this. And as I mentioned
in another reply, we are doing this in part to really help them incarnate down
to their fingertips, so it WILL be a challenge for many. I know it was for me
too when i learned to play them, so I know it's a learnable skill! When my
classes sit in a circle, I make sure I change my place in the circle often so
they can all see me and I try to put stronger players next to ones who are
having more difficulty.  This way, they can rely on a peer, as well as, me. And
the "leaders" feel empowered and get better themselves because they are showing
others how to do it. And I make sure I sit beside those who have trouble with
the mirror challenge (left and right looking straight ahead at me) so they are
beside me and I am in the same plane as they are. Personally, I do not like to
sit at desks for music class.I also have one or a few students come during a
recess for 10 minutes to have a little "special" lesson with me. This is
especially good with new students or those who are having much difficulty. I do
not hold it as punitive but actually a special time with me. So far, I have not
had anyone feel that it was a punishment or anything like that. As for
exercises, I play E D, E D, D b, D b, b a, b a, and so on right down the flute. 
I do it VERY slowly so we can breathe together and have all the time in the
world to move to the next tone. If I hear that we are not all together, I move
even more slowly. This is an amazing exercise and I use it when we get to the
C-flutes, too. I learned it from Jana Hawley. It takes the rush and worry out of
playing the right notes - very relaxing.I make sure that I find songs or pieces
of songs that employ only the tones that we are currently able to play on the
flute until we have learned all of them. And it is very important to work with
the class teachers on this, as well. I have found that they can undermine what I
am trying to do if they are doing it entirely differently than I am.
You;d be surprised how many class teachers have never really learned how to play
them!!!! This is where we can be of great service to them.
And I remember Par saying again and again that all the children don't have to
play the flutes at the same time. This allows for listening to be cultivated, as
well as the opportunity for we teachers to hear children more on an individual
basis.  And sometimes, so much sound is hard on young ears and they end up
covering their ears!! NOT good for the deep listening we are trying to
encourage. Hope this helps!
--- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, "marinwaldorfmusique" <bamboorose@...> wrote:
>
> I am happy to hear about your experiences with students and instruments. 
Thank you so much for taking the time to write about this subject.
> Although they sometimes have trouble covering the holes, c flute has come
easily for most of my students.  Pentatonic flute can be quite challenging for
them, even in the 2nd grade.  The non-hole fingers are confusing for some
students.  Any suggestions for games, exercises, songs, etc. for pentatonic
would be appreciated.
> Sitting in a circle is not always the best for my students as the ones on the
sides have trouble seeing.  Of course, the desks ("child traps" as Par once
said) get in the way and keep the 3rd row at a great distance.
> Some students need individual help to cover the holes and coordinate the
fingers.  I sometimes have a short time when the students draw a picture from a
song or story while I work with individuals.  Do you have ways to bring in the
students who are confused or frustrated?
> Thanks,
> Carol
>

I'm not sure why they would be changing every year...We use the pentatonics in
grade 1, 2 and sometimes the beginning of grade 3. Then, we switch to the
C-flutes until at least the middle of grade 5. My students know that in order to
go on to the next flute (which they hold in great esteem), they must learn how
to play their current one.  This is a great motivator. And I hope that you
understood that I was talking only about those teachers that I HAVE heard refer
to the recorder as a real instrument and "Why do we have to deal with these
stupid little Choroi flutes?" I apologize if I offended!!

--- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, Ruth Lomenda <rlom@...> wrote:
>
>
> I definitely don't feel the choroi flutes are not "real"! They are gorgeous
instruments!
> For some who are challenged and somewhat frustrated with an instruments,I do
feel changing fingering each year may inhibit the development of musicality and
ability to feel one with their instrument.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: anawme_founder <themusicpainter@...>
> Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 11:46 am
> Subject: [anawme] Re: Recorders and C flutes
> To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
>
> >
> > ...also, I don't see that using the C-flute as preparation for
> > playing the recorder is important, in regards to fingering.
> > First of all, this seems to imply that the recorder is a "real"
> > instrument and the Choroi flutes are just little practice
> > instruments. And, as for different fingering, yes, the different
> > flutes HAVE different fingering, which is very helpful in
> > bringing them into their incarnation "right down to their
> > fingertips", as Steiner indicates. A new instrument, a new
> > fingering. Just as they learn different techniques in handwork,
> > there is a new instrument (kniting needle, crochet hoodk, etc.)
> > to hold, a new way to stitch, etc. This is one of the reasons we
> > even use the flutes in the grades.  I find when I read and
> > re-read Steiner's indications on child development and all the
> > discussions he had with teachers, I gain a clearer understanding
> > of why we do what we do. These are topics we constantly discuss
> > again and again during our summer music teacher conferences and
> > here in these conversations. How great is is that we have the
> > opportunity to connect in this way!
> >
> > --- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, "Ruth Lomenda" <rlom@> wrote:
> > >
> > > There has been much discussion over the years at our school
> > re: the use of C flutes, pentatonic flutes, and
> > recorders.   The progression was grades 1 and 2 played
> > pentatonic flute, grades 3 and 4 C flutes, and grades 5 and 6
> > recorders, grade 6 in consort.  Last year this was
> > challenged by an incoming class one teacher and now we are
> > introducing the C flute immediately in grade one and using it
> > through grade 4. A number of us felt the pentatonic flute was an
> > unnecessary expense for the parents, and required learning a new
> > fingering.  The grade one and two students are managing
> > very well with the C flute (playing pentatonic tunes of course)
> > > As the music specialist, I work somewhat with the flutes in
> > the final months of grade 2, and then in more detail in grade 3
> > as a tool for reading music, and from then on as an integrated
> > part of the program.  I do feel that the grade 5 classes
> > are ready for alto recorders and would love to introduce soprano
> > recorder in grade 4, and alto in grade 5, but this is for a
> > future discussion at my school.
> > > I totally am in favor of the C flute.  It has a similar
> > fingering to recorder and prepares the students well for
> > recorder work.  The sound is mellow and sweet, with less
> > overtones.  The tuning is more precise.
> > > All class teachers use the flutes and recorders in main lesson
> > work, at least to grade 5, although traditionally they haven't
> > worked much with reading music notation, but have left me to
> > teach this in music class.
> > > The students move to band in grade 7 (our school only goes to
> > grade 9)
> > > Ruth Lomenda - Calgary Waldorf
> > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > >   From: marinwaldorfmusique
> > >   To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
> > >   Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 10:02 PM
> > >   Subject: [anawme] Recorders and C flutes
> > >
> > >
> > >     Hello! Another call for comment!
> > >   A few years ago, after attending the Music
> > Teachers' Conference, I spoke to our incoming Grade 3 teacher
> > about taking up C flutes rather than recorders. As I was new to
> > C flutes, I shared the experience of others that C flutes had a
> > warmer more diffuse sound, were less individual and had a
> > similar feeling to the pentatonic flutes of Grades 1 and 2. She
> > was receptive and we began to work with them. Subsequent
> > teachers were also receptive to C flutes. At Andrea's
> > suggestion, I introduced alto recorder in Grade 5, carrying it
> > into Grade 6. At my school, Grade 6 has orchestra twice a week
> > but Music only once. The class teacher must carry most of the
> > singing and recorder during ML.
> > >
> > >   The original C flute class has now reached 6th
> > grade. They are not very skilled at the alto yet, although they
> > are very musical and really enjoy string instruments in
> > orchestra. Their class teacher is skilled at recorder so will
> > probably be able to carry them into consort playing, if I focus
> > on it as well. The previous 2 sixth grades did not play alto
> > with their class teachers much and only did a little bit of
> > consort with me.
> > >
> > >   I now have 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade teachers who did
> > soprano recorder with their previous classes. The 1st grade
> > teacher (comingfrom a different school) is used to doing a LOT
> > of recorder with her class, starting in 3rd grade leading to
> > consort playing and some students taking up flute, clarinet and
> > sax. She discussed this with Brien Masters in Dornach. He was
> > not convinced that Choroi instruments were a clear choice,
> > indicating a concern that the commercial side (people pushing
> > sales) might have been a factor in their acceptance. Also, since
> > she was teaching in Hawaii where mold is rampant, she used only
> > plastic instruments.
> > >
> > >   Since I have not created a Program description
> > that designates diatonic flute as the 3rd grade instrument, I
> > feel there is flexibility to go with the Class teachers' wishes.
> > However, I feel the diatonic flute has been a worthy experience
> > for our students even if their recorder skills have not
> > developed as far and not ready to abandon them just for
> > someone's convenience. (Class teachers often find C flute
> > difficult to play.)
> > >
> > >   I am planning to meet with these 3 teachers to
> > discuss their interests in the 2 instruments and would
> > appreciate hearing from any of you with experience in either or
> > both directions. I still have wooden soprano recorders from
> > previous years and can order plastic Yamaha Rottenburghs for the
> > 6th grade for not too much if we decide to give wooden sopranos
> > to 3rd grade. I would like to have the fullest picture possible
> > when going into this conversation. Please give me your thoughts
> > at the earliest opportunity.
> > >   Thanks,
> > >   Carol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor
> > (6.0.0.386)>   Database version: 5.11910
> > >   http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
> > > Database version: 5.11910
> > > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Not at all. Some people even think that recorders are "toys"!  Pre-band
instruments...
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: anawme_founder
   To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 12:18 PM
   Subject: [anawme] Re: Recorders and C flutes


     I'm not sure why they would be changing every year...We use the pentatonics
in grade 1, 2 and sometimes the beginning of grade 3. Then, we switch to the
C-flutes until at least the middle of grade 5. My students know that in order to
go on to the next flute (which they hold in great esteem), they must learn how
to play their current one. This is a great motivator. And I hope that you
understood that I was talking only about those teachers that I HAVE heard refer
to the recorder as a real instrument and "Why do we have to deal with these
stupid little Choroi flutes?" I apologize if I offended!!

   --- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, Ruth Lomenda <rlom@...> wrote:
   >
   >
   > I definitely don't feel the choroi flutes are not "real"! They are gorgeous
instruments!
   > For some who are challenged and somewhat frustrated with an instruments,I do
feel changing fingering each year may inhibit the development of musicality and
ability to feel one with their instrument.
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: anawme_founder <themusicpainter@...>
   > Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 11:46 am
   > Subject: [anawme] Re: Recorders and C flutes
   > To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
   >
   > >
   > > ...also, I don't see that using the C-flute as preparation for
   > > playing the recorder is important, in regards to fingering.
   > > First of all, this seems to imply that the recorder is a "real"
   > > instrument and the Choroi flutes are just little practice
   > > instruments. And, as for different fingering, yes, the different
   > > flutes HAVE different fingering, which is very helpful in
   > > bringing them into their incarnation "right down to their
   > > fingertips", as Steiner indicates. A new instrument, a new
   > > fingering. Just as they learn different techniques in handwork,
   > > there is a new instrument (kniting needle, crochet hoodk, etc.)
   > > to hold, a new way to stitch, etc. This is one of the reasons we
   > > even use the flutes in the grades. I find when I read and
   > > re-read Steiner's indications on child development and all the
   > > discussions he had with teachers, I gain a clearer understanding
   > > of why we do what we do. These are topics we constantly discuss
   > > again and again during our summer music teacher conferences and
   > > here in these conversations. How great is is that we have the
   > > opportunity to connect in this way!
   > >
   > > --- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, "Ruth Lomenda" <rlom@> wrote:
   > > >
   > > > There has been much discussion over the years at our school
   > > re: the use of C flutes, pentatonic flutes, and
   > > recorders. The progression was grades 1 and 2 played
   > > pentatonic flute, grades 3 and 4 C flutes, and grades 5 and 6
   > > recorders, grade 6 in consort. Last year this was
   > > challenged by an incoming class one teacher and now we are
   > > introducing the C flute immediately in grade one and using it
   > > through grade 4. A number of us felt the pentatonic flute was an
   > > unnecessary expense for the parents, and required learning a new
   > > fingering. The grade one and two students are managing
   > > very well with the C flute (playing pentatonic tunes of course)
   > > > As the music specialist, I work somewhat with the flutes in
   > > the final months of grade 2, and then in more detail in grade 3
   > > as a tool for reading music, and from then on as an integrated
   > > part of the program. I do feel that the grade 5 classes
   > > are ready for alto recorders and would love to introduce soprano
   > > recorder in grade 4, and alto in grade 5, but this is for a
   > > future discussion at my school.
   > > > I totally am in favor of the C flute. It has a similar
   > > fingering to recorder and prepares the students well for
   > > recorder work. The sound is mellow and sweet, with less
   > > overtones. The tuning is more precise.
   > > > All class teachers use the flutes and recorders in main lesson
   > > work, at least to grade 5, although traditionally they haven't
   > > worked much with reading music notation, but have left me to
   > > teach this in music class.
   > > > The students move to band in grade 7 (our school only goes to
   > > grade 9)
   > > > Ruth Lomenda - Calgary Waldorf
   > > > ----- Original Message -----
   > > > From: marinwaldorfmusique
   > > > To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
   > > > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 10:02 PM
   > > > Subject: [anawme] Recorders and C flutes
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > Hello! Another call for comment!
   > > > A few years ago, after attending the Music
   > > Teachers' Conference, I spoke to our incoming Grade 3 teacher
   > > about taking up C flutes rather than recorders. As I was new to
   > > C flutes, I shared the experience of others that C flutes had a
   > > warmer more diffuse sound, were less individual and had a
   > > similar feeling to the pentatonic flutes of Grades 1 and 2. She
   > > was receptive and we began to work with them. Subsequent
   > > teachers were also receptive to C flutes. At Andrea's
   > > suggestion, I introduced alto recorder in Grade 5, carrying it
   > > into Grade 6. At my school, Grade 6 has orchestra twice a week
   > > but Music only once. The class teacher must carry most of the
   > > singing and recorder during ML.
   > > >
   > > > The original C flute class has now reached 6th
   > > grade. They are not very skilled at the alto yet, although they
   > > are very musical and really enjoy string instruments in
   > > orchestra. Their class teacher is skilled at recorder so will
   > > probably be able to carry them into consort playing, if I focus
   > > on it as well. The previous 2 sixth grades did not play alto
   > > with their class teachers much and only did a little bit of
   > > consort with me.
   > > >
   > > > I now have 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade teachers who did
   > > soprano recorder with their previous classes. The 1st grade
   > > teacher (comingfrom a different school) is used to doing a LOT
   > > of recorder with her class, starting in 3rd grade leading to
   > > consort playing and some students taking up flute, clarinet and
   > > sax. She discussed this with Brien Masters in Dornach. He was
   > > not convinced that Choroi instruments were a clear choice,
   > > indicating a concern that the commercial side (people pushing
   > > sales) might have been a factor in their acceptance. Also, since
   > > she was teaching in Hawaii where mold is rampant, she used only
   > > plastic instruments.
   > > >
   > > > Since I have not created a Program description
   > > that designates diatonic flute as the 3rd grade instrument, I
   > > feel there is flexibility to go with the Class teachers' wishes.
   > > However, I feel the diatonic flute has been a worthy experience
   > > for our students even if their recorder skills have not
   > > developed as far and not ready to abandon them just for
   > > someone's convenience. (Class teachers often find C flute
   > > difficult to play.)
   > > >
   > > > I am planning to meet with these 3 teachers to
   > > discuss their interests in the 2 instruments and would
   > > appreciate hearing from any of you with experience in either or
   > > both directions. I still have wooden soprano recorders from
   > > previous years and can order plastic Yamaha Rottenburghs for the
   > > 6th grade for not too much if we decide to give wooden sopranos
   > > to 3rd grade. I would like to have the fullest picture possible
   > > when going into this conversation. Please give me your thoughts
   > > at the earliest opportunity.
   > > > Thanks,
   > > > Carol
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor
   > > (6.0.0.386)> Database version: 5.11910
   > > > http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
   > > > Database version: 5.11910
   > > > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You are "on the mark" when you say that not everyone need play at the same time.
The beauty of the instrument often comes through when one, or only a few, or
playing.
I like to play a duet with several children, making up a simple accompaniment to
their melody.

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: anawme_founder
   To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 12:14 PM
   Subject: [anawme] Re: Recorders, C & pentatonic flutes


     I always use a flute holding song (that I wrote) that indicates which
fingers are holding fingers and so on and we sing it every class until they beg
NOT to sing it, which means that they don't need it anymore. And I have them
learn the notes from the top down and I don't add the next one until they are
secure. If it seems like they are not, I back up one note. I know of a teacher
who has put those little colored rubber bands on her students' holding fingers
and she said it really made a difference. I talk about imaginary special flute
glue on those fingers. I'm sure there are many other great ideas for this. And
as I mentioned in another reply, we are doing this in part to really help them
incarnate down to their fingertips, so it WILL be a challenge for many. I know
it was for me too when i learned to play them, so I know it's a learnable skill!
When my classes sit in a circle, I make sure I change my place in the circle
often so they can all see me and I try t You;d be surprised how many class
teachers have never really learned how to play them!!!! This is where we can be
of great service to them.
   And I remember Par saying again and again that all the children don't have to
play the flutes at the same time. This allows for listening to be cultivated, as
well as the opportunity for we teachers to hear children more on an individual
basis. And sometimes, so much sound is hard on young ears and they end up
covering their ears!! NOT good for the deep listening we are trying to
encourage. Hope this helps!
   --- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, "marinwaldorfmusique" <bamboorose@...> wrote:
   >
   > I am happy to hear about your experiences with students and instruments.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write about this subject.
   > Although they sometimes have trouble covering the holes, c flute has come
easily for most of my students. Pentatonic flute can be quite challenging for
them, even in the 2nd grade. The non-hole fingers are confusing for some
students. Any suggestions for games, exercises, songs, etc. for pentatonic would
be appreciated.
   > Sitting in a circle is not always the best for my students as the ones on
the sides have trouble seeing. Of course, the desks ("child traps" as Par once
said) get in the way and keep the 3rd row at a great distance.
   > Some students need individual help to cover the holes and coordinate the
fingers. I sometimes have a short time when the students draw a picture from a
song or story while I work with individuals. Do you have ways to bring in the
students who are confused or frustrated?
   > Thanks,
   > Carol
   >








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In reading all the hoopla on flutes - maybe it's floopla...(?) I was brought to
some interesting thoughts. There are so many good comments out there, perhaps
they all work at some point, with some class, in some school. As we all know
every class is different, and I wonder if we can really set down a plan that
always works. Don't we gage everything in Waldorf education this way - for the
class?
I apologize, I really don't like to comment - it is so easy to get caught up on
a soap box, but since we're all sharing.....one of the things that I have found
to be more helpful to the children's musicianship than anything else, has really
also been an accident ( I LOVE those).
No matter what the venue, I cross-teach everything I possibly can. I currently
have the new 4th grade 'orchestra' plucking a song on their instruments that
they wrote (with some help) that they put lyrics to so they could sing it,
and of course they play it on their C-flutes. I do this consistently throughout
the grades, so that they have a relationship to the WHOLE of music and not just
the individual parts of their instrument, flute, recorder or song.
The current 6th - 8th orchestra plays most of their recorder consorts in
orchestra class as well - they are usually the ones to comment on how different
the songs sound and which way they prefer for the song. They also sing anything
that we can put words to.
I don't want to imply about anyone else, but I know I can get pedantic at times,
and the musical 'product' for the parents can feed that quite well if I'm not
careful. The children really lead us to what they need, and I am finding that
keeping the parents out of my head is always helpful to the children's
experience, and, in the end gives the parents what they want anyway.
Oh, and I use Choroi flutes through 3rd grade and into 4th or 5th, depending (
An aside - I, too, thought the Choroi's were a good money scheme - until I
worked with Par. I see, hear and feel the value of them everyday with the
children).
Then we move to plastic Yamaha's. The children don't keep anything until they
are issued a soprano recorder ( but we always have a stock of used flutes in the
school store for the youngers). Cost will always be a factor in our world....
dance to the music,
Elizabeth

--- On Tue, 10/6/09, Ruth Lomenda <rlom@...> wrote:


From: Ruth Lomenda <rlom@...>
Subject: Re: [anawme] Re: Recorders, C & pentatonic flutes
To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 6:13 PM


 



You are "on the mark" when you say that not everyone need play at the same time.
The beauty of the instrument often comes through when one, or only a few, or
playing.
I like to play a duet with several children, making up a simple accompaniment to
their melody.

----- Original Message -----
From: anawme_founder
To: anawme@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 12:14 PM
Subject: [anawme] Re: Recorders, C & pentatonic flutes

I always use a flute holding song (that I wrote) that indicates which fingers
are holding fingers and so on and we sing it every class until they beg NOT to
sing it, which means that they don't need it anymore. And I have them learn the
notes from the top down and I don't add the next one until they are secure. If
it seems like they are not, I back up one note. I know of a teacher who has put
those little colored rubber bands on her students' holding fingers and she said
it really made a difference. I talk about imaginary special flute glue on those
fingers. I'm sure there are many other great ideas for this. And as I mentioned
in another reply, we are doing this in part to really help them incarnate down
to their fingertips, so it WILL be a challenge for many. I know it was for me
too when i learned to play them, so I know it's a learnable skill! When my
classes sit in a circle, I make sure I change my place in the circle often so
they can all see me
  and I try t You;d be surprised how many class teachers have never really
learned how to play them!!!! This is where we can be of great service to them.
And I remember Par saying again and again that all the children don't have to
play the flutes at the same time. This allows for listening to be cultivated, as
well as the opportunity for we teachers to hear children more on an individual
basis. And sometimes, so much sound is hard on young ears and they end up
covering their ears!! NOT good for the deep listening we are trying to
encourage. Hope this helps!
--- In anawme@yahoogroups. com, "marinwaldorfmusiqu e" <bamboorose@ ...> wrote:
>
> I am happy to hear about your experiences with students and instruments. Thank
you so much for taking the time to write about this subject.
> Although they sometimes have trouble covering the holes, c flute has come
easily for most of my students. Pentatonic flute can be quite challenging for
them, even in the 2nd grade. The non-hole fingers are confusing for some
students. Any suggestions for games, exercises, songs, etc. for pentatonic would
be appreciated.
> Sitting in a circle is not always the best for my students as the ones on the
sides have trouble seeing. Of course, the desks ("child traps" as Par once said)
get in the way and keep the 3rd row at a great distance.
> Some students need individual help to cover the holes and coordinate the
fingers. I sometimes have a short time when the students draw a picture from a
song or story while I work with individuals. Do you have ways to bring in the
students who are confused or frustrated?
> Thanks,
> Carol
>

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Elizabeth for sharing your always insightful input!! I really agree with
your "keeping the parents out of your head". I'm there for the children, the
children, the children........ and the parents can see that their children are
loving music and becoming more beautiful humans in the process. YIPPEE!!!!

--- In anawme@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth A English <handit2me@...> wrote:
>
> In reading all the hoopla on flutes - maybe it's floopla...(?) I was brought
to some interesting thoughts. There are so many good comments out there, perhaps
they all work at some point, with some class, in some school. As we all know
every class is different, and�I wonder if we can really set down a plan that
always works. Don't we gage everything in Waldorf education this way - for the
class?
> I apologize, I really don't like to comment - it is so easy to get caught up
on a soap box, but since we're all sharing.....one of the things that I have
found to be more helpful to the children's musicianship�than anything else,
has really also been an accident ( I LOVE those).
> No matter what the venue, I cross-teach everything I possibly can. I currently
have the new 4th grade 'orchestra' plucking a song on their instruments that
they wrote (with some help) that they put lyrics to so they could sing it,
and�of course�they�play it on their C-flutes. I do this consistently
throughout the grades, so that they have a relationship to the WHOLE of music
and not just the individual parts of their instrument, flute,�recorder or
song.
> The current 6th - 8th orchestra plays most of their recorder consorts in
orchestra class as well - they are usually the ones to comment on
how�different the songs sound and which way they prefer for the song.�They
also sing anything that we can put words to.
> I don't want to imply about anyone else, but I know I can get pedantic at
times, and the musical 'product' for the parents can feed that quite well if I'm
not careful. The children really lead us to what they need, and I am finding
that keeping the parents out of my head is always helpful to the children's
experience, and, in the end gives the parents what they want anyway.
> Oh, and I use Choroi flutes through 3rd grade and into 4th or 5th, depending (
An aside - I, too, thought the Choroi's were a good money scheme - until I
worked with Par. I see, hear and feel the value of them everyday with the
children).
> Then we move to plastic Yamaha's. The children don't keep anything until they
are issued a soprano recorder ( but we always have a stock of used flutes in the
school store for the youngers). Cost will always be a factor in our world....
> dance to the music,
> Elizabeth
>
> --- On Tue, 10/6/09, Ruth Lomenda <rlom@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Ruth Lomenda <rlom@...>
> Subject: Re: [anawme] Re: Recorders, C & pentatonic flutes
> To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 6:13 PM
>
>
> ďż˝
>
>
>
> You are "on the mark" when you say that not everyone need play at the same
time.
> The beauty of the instrument often comes through when one, or only a few, or
playing.
> I like to play a duet with several children, making up a simple accompaniment
to their melody.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: anawme_founder
> To: anawme@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 12:14 PM
> Subject: [anawme] Re: Recorders, C & pentatonic flutes
>
> I always use a flute holding song (that I wrote) that indicates which fingers
are holding fingers and so on and we sing it every class until they beg NOT to
sing it, which means that they don't need it anymore. And I have them learn the
notes from the top down and I don't add the next one until they are secure. If
it seems like they are not, I back up one note. I know of a teacher who has put
those little colored rubber bands on her students' holding fingers and she said
it really made a difference. I talk about imaginary special flute glue on those
fingers. I'm sure there are many other great ideas for this. And as I mentioned
in another reply, we are doing this in part to really help them incarnate down
to their fingertips, so it WILL be a challenge for many. I know it was for me
too when i learned to play them, so I know it's a learnable skill! When my
classes sit in a circle, I make sure I change my place in the circle often so
they can all see me
>  and I try t You;d be surprised how many class teachers have never really
learned how to play them!!!! This is where we can be of great service to them.
> And I remember Par saying again and again that all the children don't have to
play the flutes at the same time. This allows for listening to be cultivated, as
well as the opportunity for we teachers to hear children more on an individual
basis. And sometimes, so much sound is hard on young ears and they end up
covering their ears!! NOT good for the deep listening we are trying to
encourage. Hope this helps!
> --- In anawme@yahoogroups. com, "marinwaldorfmusiqu e" <bamboorose@ ...>
wrote:
> >
> > I am happy to hear about your experiences with students and instruments.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write about this subject.
> > Although they sometimes have trouble covering the holes, c flute has come
easily for most of my students. Pentatonic flute can be quite challenging for
them, even in the 2nd grade. The non-hole fingers are confusing for some
students. Any suggestions for games, exercises, songs, etc. for pentatonic would
be appreciated.
> > Sitting in a circle is not always the best for my students as the ones on
the sides have trouble seeing. Of course, the desks ("child traps" as Par once
said) get in the way and keep the 3rd row at a great distance.
> > Some students need individual help to cover the holes and coordinate the
fingers. I sometimes have a short time when the students draw a picture from a
song or story while I work with individuals. Do you have ways to bring in the
students who are confused or frustrated?
> > Thanks,
> > Carol
> >
>
> E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
> Database version: 5.11910
> http://www.pctools. com/spyware- doctor/
>
> E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
> Database version: 5.11910
> http://www.pctools. com/en/spyware- doctor/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Friends,
Here is the information on the Christof Weichert Conference in February. 
Contact BACWTT to register but please let me know if you're coming so we can
meet!
Thanks, Carol

I must give a new impulse [...] Make no mistake, it is largely a question of
interest in the children and the young people and a matter of enthusiasm [...]
We shall not get anywhere in any direction without enthusiasm and inner
mobility[...] A person certainly cannot be tired if s/he wants to be alive in
the spirit.” Rudolf Steiner

Faculty Meeting of the Stuttgart Waldorf School, July 24, 1924

With these words Rudolf Steiner ends his engagement in the original Waldorf
School. Ninety years later we might ask ourselves: Do we now also need a new
impulse?

How can we balance structure and form with impulse and creativity so that they
serve a “new impulse” for Waldorf schools - an impulse that is needed as we
approach the centenary of this new educational paradigm.

The educational paradigm in the time of the consciousness soul is the art of
education. This paradigm has three pillars, reflected in the three lectures.

This 3-day conference will be concentrated. The days will be relatively short -
9:30am to 3:30pm on Thursday and Friday; 9:30 to 12:30 on Saturday â€" so that
participants can commute more easily, need not be away from home all day, and
still have something of a weekend.

In order to make this conference affordable, we will have a minimal registration
fee of $35. Lunches will be available, provided by the Marin Waldorf School 8th
graders, as a fund-raiser for their 8th grade trip. Local restaurants are, of
course, also available. We ask you to organize any required lodging - several
local motels can be found here or by searching “Marin motels” on the
internet. Refreshment during coffee breaks will be provided.

The conference schedule will be:

Thursday, February 18; and Friday, February 19:

At the Dixie Elementary School

9:30: Singing
9:50: Lecture I: Finding a New Interest in Children and Students and Lecture II:
Finding a New Enthusiasm for Teaching by Christof Wiechert
11:00: coffee break
11:30: interest groups (in context of lecture) - metaphoric speech, mastery of
time, how to shape a main lesson…. We are looking for innovative topics, or
old topics with innovative approaches. Suggestions welcome, send to
dorit@...
12:30: lunch

At the Marin Waldorf School

2:00: activity (games, concentration exercises, speech exercises, class plays,
math activities) (same group configuration as morning)
3:00: review and preview of next day (CJW)
3:30: coffee break

Saturday, February 20:

At the Dixie Elementary School

9:30: Singing
9:50: Lecture III: Finding a New Moral Relationship Between Children and Their
Teachers by Christof Wiechert
11:00: coffee break
11:30: plenum and conclusion
12:30: end

This conference serves as preparation for the Waldorf Seminar of the Summer Arts
Festival of Bay Area Center for Waldorf Teacher Training with Christof Wiechert
on lectures 1-7 of Study of Man to be held in July of 2010.

Christof Wiechert was born in 1945, and was a pupil at the Waldorf school in the
Hague, Netherlands. After studying education and geography, he was a teacher for
30 years at the Waldorf school in the Hague. During this time, Christof
co-founded the Dutch State Waldorf Teacher Training Seminar, and was for many
years a Council member in the Anthroposophical Society in the Netherlands.
Together with Ate Koopmans, he developed the “Art of Child Study” course. In
September 1999, he began his work for the Pedagogical Section, and in October
2001, became the head of the Educational Department of the School of Spiritual
Science at the Goetheanum in Dornach/Switzerland. He is married with five
children. Christof’s recent lecture tours include the Philippines, Israel,
Holland, Switzerland, Germany, Seattle, the Bay Area, and Orange County (7
lectures in 3 days). His current research includes the topic of Rudolf
Steiner’s last months at the original Waldorf school, and in particular,
Steiner’s efforts to guide the pioneer teachers in a new direction.

Did you send this to Jason to post on the website?  I wish I could
come!!!!!!!!!!
Andrea


*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
"There is no need to change the world. All we have to do is toilet train the
world, and we will never have to change it again." In these serious times,
it's great to wake up laughing, and even better to leave laughter in your
wake.
-- Swami Beyondananda


On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 6:52 PM, marinwaldorfmusique <
bamboorose@...> wrote:

>
>
> Friends,
> Here is the information on the Christof Weichert Conference in February.
> Contact BACWTT to register but please let me know if you're coming so we can
> meet!
> Thanks, Carol
>
> I must give a new impulse [...] Make no mistake, it is largely a question
> of interest in the children and the young people and a matter of enthusiasm
> [...] We shall not get anywhere in any direction without enthusiasm and
> inner mobility[...] A person certainly cannot be tired if s/he wants to be
> alive in the spirit.†Rudolf Steiner
>
> Faculty Meeting of the Stuttgart Waldorf School, July 24, 1924
>
> With these words Rudolf Steiner ends his engagement in the original Waldorf
> School. Ninety years later we might ask ourselves: Do we now also need a new
> impulse?
>
> How can we balance structure and form with impulse and creativity so that
> they serve a “new impulse†for Waldorf schools - an impulse that is
> needed as we approach the centenary of this new educational paradigm.
>
> The educational paradigm in the time of the consciousness soul is the art
> of education. This paradigm has three pillars, reflected in the three
> lectures.
>
> This 3-day conference will be concentrated. The days will be relatively
> short - 9:30am to 3:30pm on Thursday and Friday; 9:30 to 12:30 on Saturday
> â€" so that participants can commute more easily, need not be away from home
> all day, and still have something of a weekend.
>
> In order to make this conference affordable, we will have a minimal
> registration fee of $35. Lunches will be available, provided by the Marin
> Waldorf School 8th graders, as a fund-raiser for their 8th grade trip. Local
> restaurants are, of course, also available. We ask you to organize any
> required lodging - several local motels can be found here or by searching
> “Marin motels†on the internet. Refreshment during coffee breaks will be
> provided.
>
> The conference schedule will be:
>
> Thursday, February 18; and Friday, February 19:
>
> At the Dixie Elementary School
>
> 9:30: Singing
> 9:50: Lecture I: Finding a New Interest in Children and Students and
> Lecture II: Finding a New Enthusiasm for Teaching by Christof Wiechert
> 11:00: coffee break
> 11:30: interest groups (in context of lecture) - metaphoric speech, mastery
> of time, how to shape a main lesson…. We are looking for innovative
> topics, or old topics with innovative approaches. Suggestions welcome, send
> to dorit@... <dorit%40bacwtt.org>
> 12:30: lunch
>
> At the Marin Waldorf School
>
> 2:00: activity (games, concentration exercises, speech exercises, class
> plays, math activities) (same group configuration as morning)
> 3:00: review and preview of next day (CJW)
> 3:30: coffee break
>
> Saturday, February 20:
>
> At the Dixie Elementary School
>
> 9:30: Singing
> 9:50: Lecture III: Finding a New Moral Relationship Between Children and
> Their Teachers by Christof Wiechert
> 11:00: coffee break
> 11:30: plenum and conclusion
> 12:30: end
>
> This conference serves as preparation for the Waldorf Seminar of the Summer
> Arts Festival of Bay Area Center for Waldorf Teacher Training with Christof
> Wiechert on lectures 1-7 of Study of Man to be held in July of 2010.
>
> Christof Wiechert was born in 1945, and was a pupil at the Waldorf school
> in the Hague, Netherlands. After studying education and geography, he was a
> teacher for 30 years at the Waldorf school in the Hague. During this time,
> Christof co-founded the Dutch State Waldorf Teacher Training Seminar, and
> was for many years a Council member in the Anthroposophical Society in the
> Netherlands. Together with Ate Koopmans, he developed the “Art of Child
> Study†course. In September 1999, he began his work for the Pedagogical
> Section, and in October 2001, became the head of the Educational Department
> of the School of Spiritual Science at the Goetheanum in Dornach/Switzerland.
> He is married with five children. Christof’s recent lecture tours include
> the Philippines, Israel, Holland, Switzerland, Germany, Seattle, the Bay
> Area, and Orange County (7 lectures in 3 days). His current research
> includes the topic of Rudolf Steiner’s last months at the original Waldorf
> school, and in particular, Steiner’s efforts to guide the pioneer teachers
> in a new direction.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Andrea,
I just sent it to him.
Carol

--- On Wed, 10/14/09, Andrea Lyman <themusicpainter@...> wrote:

From: Andrea Lyman <themusicpainter@...>
Subject: Re: [anawme] Christof Weichert
To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 7:42 PM

Did you send this to Jason to post on the website?  I wish I could
come!!!!!!!!!!
Andrea


*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
"There is no need to change the world. All we have to do is toilet train the
world, and we will never have to change it again." In these serious times,
it's great to wake up laughing, and even better to leave laughter in your
wake.
-- Swami Beyondananda


On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 6:52 PM, marinwaldorfmusique <
bamboorose@...> wrote:

>
>
> Friends,
> Here is the information on the Christof Weichert Conference in February.
> Contact BACWTT to register but please let me know if you're coming so we can
> meet!
> Thanks, Carol
>
> I must give a new impulse [...] Make no mistake, it is largely a question
> of interest in the children and the young people and a matter of enthusiasm
> [...] We shall not get anywhere in any direction without enthusiasm and
> inner mobility[...] A person certainly cannot be tired if s/he wants to be
> alive in the spirit.†Rudolf Steiner
>
> Faculty Meeting of the Stuttgart Waldorf School, July 24, 1924
>
> With these words Rudolf Steiner ends his engagement in the original Waldorf
> School. Ninety years later we might ask ourselves: Do we now also need a new
> impulse?
>
> How can we balance structure and form with impulse and creativity so that
> they serve a “new impulse†for Waldorf schools - an impulse that is
> needed as we approach the centenary of this new educational paradigm.
>
> The educational paradigm in the time of the consciousness soul is the art
> of education. This paradigm has three pillars, reflected in the three
> lectures.
>
> This 3-day conference will be concentrated. The days will be relatively
> short - 9:30am to 3:30pm on Thursday and Friday; 9:30 to 12:30 on Saturday
> â€" so that participants can commute more easily, need not be away from
home
> all day, and still have something of a weekend.
>
> In order to make this conference affordable, we will have a minimal
> registration fee of $35. Lunches will be available, provided by the Marin
> Waldorf School 8th graders, as a fund-raiser for their 8th grade trip. Local
> restaurants are, of course, also available. We ask you to organize any
> required lodging - several local motels can be found here or by searching
> “Marin motels†on the internet. Refreshment during coffee breaks
will be
> provided.
>
> The conference schedule will be:
>
> Thursday, February 18; and Friday, February 19:
>
> At the Dixie Elementary School
>
> 9:30: Singing
> 9:50: Lecture I: Finding a New Interest in Children and Students and
> Lecture II: Finding a New Enthusiasm for Teaching by Christof Wiechert
> 11:00: coffee break
> 11:30: interest groups (in context of lecture) - metaphoric speech, mastery
> of time, how to shape a main lesson…. We are looking for innovative
> topics, or old topics with innovative approaches. Suggestions welcome, send
> to dorit@... <dorit%40bacwtt.org>
> 12:30: lunch
>
> At the Marin Waldorf School
>
> 2:00: activity (games, concentration exercises, speech exercises, class
> plays, math activities) (same group configuration as morning)
> 3:00: review and preview of next day (CJW)
> 3:30: coffee break
>
> Saturday, February 20:
>
> At the Dixie Elementary School
>
> 9:30: Singing
> 9:50: Lecture III: Finding a New Moral Relationship Between Children and
> Their Teachers by Christof Wiechert
> 11:00: coffee break
> 11:30: plenum and conclusion
> 12:30: end
>
> This conference serves as preparation for the Waldorf Seminar of the Summer
> Arts Festival of Bay Area Center for Waldorf Teacher Training with Christof
> Wiechert on lectures 1-7 of Study of Man to be held in July of 2010.
>
> Christof Wiechert was born in 1945, and was a pupil at the Waldorf school
> in the Hague, Netherlands. After studying education and geography, he was a
> teacher for 30 years at the Waldorf school in the Hague. During this time,
> Christof co-founded the Dutch State Waldorf Teacher Training Seminar, and
> was for many years a Council member in the Anthroposophical Society in the
> Netherlands. Together with Ate Koopmans, he developed the “Art of Child
> Study†course. In September 1999, he began his work for the Pedagogical
> Section, and in October 2001, became the head of the Educational Department
> of the School of Spiritual Science at the Goetheanum in Dornach/Switzerland.
> He is married with five children. Christof’s recent lecture tours
include
> the Philippines, Israel, Holland, Switzerland, Germany, Seattle, the Bay
> Area, and Orange County (7 lectures in 3 days). His current research
> includes the topic of Rudolf Steiner’s last months at the original
Waldorf
> school, and in particular, Steiner’s efforts to guide the pioneer
teachers
> in a new direction.
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Andrea,
My email to Jason came back.  Can you send me the right one?
Carol

--- On Wed, 10/14/09, Andrea Lyman <themusicpainter@...> wrote:

From: Andrea Lyman <themusicpainter@...>
Subject: Re: [anawme] Christof Weichert
To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 7:42 PM

Did you send this to Jason to post on the website?  I wish I could
come!!!!!!!!!!
Andrea


*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
"There is no need to change the world. All we have to do is toilet train the
world, and we will never have to change it again." In these serious times,
it's great to wake up laughing, and even better to leave laughter in your
wake.
-- Swami Beyondananda


On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 6:52 PM, marinwaldorfmusique <
bamboorose@...> wrote:

>
>
> Friends,
> Here is the information on the Christof Weichert Conference in February.
> Contact BACWTT to register but please let me know if you're coming so we can
> meet!
> Thanks, Carol
>
> I must give a new impulse [...] Make no mistake, it is largely a question
> of interest in the children and the young people and a matter of enthusiasm
> [...] We shall not get anywhere in any direction without enthusiasm and
> inner mobility[...] A person certainly cannot be tired if s/he wants to be
> alive in the spirit.†Rudolf Steiner
>
> Faculty Meeting of the Stuttgart Waldorf School, July 24, 1924
>
> With these words Rudolf Steiner ends his engagement in the original Waldorf
> School. Ninety years later we might ask ourselves: Do we now also need a new
> impulse?
>
> How can we balance structure and form with impulse and creativity so that
> they serve a “new impulse†for Waldorf schools - an impulse that is
> needed as we approach the centenary of this new educational paradigm.
>
> The educational paradigm in the time of the consciousness soul is the art
> of education. This paradigm has three pillars, reflected in the three
> lectures.
>
> This 3-day conference will be concentrated. The days will be relatively
> short - 9:30am to 3:30pm on Thursday and Friday; 9:30 to 12:30 on Saturday
> â€" so that participants can commute more easily, need not be away from
home
> all day, and still have something of a weekend.
>
> In order to make this conference affordable, we will have a minimal
> registration fee of $35. Lunches will be available, provided by the Marin
> Waldorf School 8th graders, as a fund-raiser for their 8th grade trip. Local
> restaurants are, of course, also available. We ask you to organize any
> required lodging - several local motels can be found here or by searching
> “Marin motels†on the internet. Refreshment during coffee breaks
will be
> provided.
>
> The conference schedule will be:
>
> Thursday, February 18; and Friday, February 19:
>
> At the Dixie Elementary School
>
> 9:30: Singing
> 9:50: Lecture I: Finding a New Interest in Children and Students and
> Lecture II: Finding a New Enthusiasm for Teaching by Christof Wiechert
> 11:00: coffee break
> 11:30: interest groups (in context of lecture) - metaphoric speech, mastery
> of time, how to shape a main lesson…. We are looking for innovative
> topics, or old topics with innovative approaches. Suggestions welcome, send
> to dorit@... <dorit%40bacwtt.org>
> 12:30: lunch
>
> At the Marin Waldorf School
>
> 2:00: activity (games, concentration exercises, speech exercises, class
> plays, math activities) (same group configuration as morning)
> 3:00: review and preview of next day (CJW)
> 3:30: coffee break
>
> Saturday, February 20:
>
> At the Dixie Elementary School
>
> 9:30: Singing
> 9:50: Lecture III: Finding a New Moral Relationship Between Children and
> Their Teachers by Christof Wiechert
> 11:00: coffee break
> 11:30: plenum and conclusion
> 12:30: end
>
> This conference serves as preparation for the Waldorf Seminar of the Summer
> Arts Festival of Bay Area Center for Waldorf Teacher Training with Christof
> Wiechert on lectures 1-7 of Study of Man to be held in July of 2010.
>
> Christof Wiechert was born in 1945, and was a pupil at the Waldorf school
> in the Hague, Netherlands. After studying education and geography, he was a
> teacher for 30 years at the Waldorf school in the Hague. During this time,
> Christof co-founded the Dutch State Waldorf Teacher Training Seminar, and
> was for many years a Council member in the Anthroposophical Society in the
> Netherlands. Together with Ate Koopmans, he developed the “Art of Child
> Study†course. In September 1999, he began his work for the Pedagogical
> Section, and in October 2001, became the head of the Educational Department
> of the School of Spiritual Science at the Goetheanum in Dornach/Switzerland.
> He is married with five children. Christof’s recent lecture tours
include
> the Philippines, Israel, Holland, Switzerland, Germany, Seattle, the Bay
> Area, and Orange County (7 lectures in 3 days). His current research
> includes the topic of Rudolf Steiner’s last months at the original
Waldorf
> school, and in particular, Steiner’s efforts to guide the pioneer
teachers
> in a new direction.
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the anawme
group.

   File        : /Misc./Quechua Harvest Song.MUS
   Uploaded by : marinwaldorfmusique <bamboorose@...>
   Description : Easy Orchestra arr. of Incan song.  Words start in m. 11:  Come,
my sisters, com, my brothers, At the sounding of the horn; On the hillsides, on
the mountains, Harvest we the yellow corn. golden shines our father sun; Silver
shines our mother moon; Sickles flashing, fill your baskets, Reaping in the
yellow noon.  Can be done with pentatonic flutes, recorder, Orff xylophones or
orchestra.  Use Finale Notebook (free) to open.

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anawme/files/Misc./Quechua%20Harvest%20Song.MUS

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

marinwaldorfmusique <bamboorose@...>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the anawme
group.

   File        : /Misc./She'll Be Comin' Round the Mountain2.MUS
   Uploaded by : marinwaldorfmusique <bamboorose@...>
   Description : Here is a simple arrangement that I made for the orchestra to
accompany Singalong.  The hilarious hoedown interlude is to make time to call
our next verse:  "Riding six white horses!", etc.  Open with Finale Notebook
(free)  Parts will also be posted under Misc. on ANAWME site.  Let me know if
you have a problem opening these files.

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anawme/files/Misc./She%27ll%20Be%20Comin%27%20Roun\
d%20the%20Mountain2.MUS

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

marinwaldorfmusique <bamboorose@...>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the anawme
group.

   File        : /Misc./Over the River.MUS
   Uploaded by : marinwaldorfmusique <bamboorose@...>
   Description : Another simple orchestra arrangement for Singalong. Open with
Finale Notepad (free).  Parts are posted under Misc.  Please let me know if this
is useful to you or if you can't download it.  -Carol

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anawme/files/Misc./Over%20the%20River.MUS

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

marinwaldorfmusique <bamboorose@...>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the anawme
group.

   File        : /Misc./For the Beauty of the Earth - Cello.MUS
   Uploaded by : marinwaldorfmusique <bamboorose@...>
   Description : Please check misc. for score and parts of this arrangement.

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anawme/files/Misc./For%20the%20Beauty%20of%20the%2\
0Earth%20-%20Cello.MUS

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

marinwaldorfmusique <bamboorose@...>

Hello,

This is a request regarding music files. Is it possible to scan the music and
send it to the files as a pdf? That would be really helpful for those of us who
don't have the ability to download finale. Thank you, Connie Manson


-----Original Message-----
From: anawme@yahoogroups.com
To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 1:47 am
Subject: [anawme] New file uploaded to anawme







Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the anawme
group.

File : /Misc./For the Beauty of the Earth - Cello.MUS
Uploaded by : marinwaldorfmusique <bamboorose@...>
Description : Please check misc. for score and parts of this arrangement.

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anawme/files/Misc./For%20the%20Beauty%20of%20the%2\
0Earth%20-%20Cello.MUS

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

marinwaldorfmusique <bamboorose@...>








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would be happy to post pdfs of my Finale files but have never done it before
and don't have time to research how.  If someone knows how to transform Finale
files to pdfs and post them, please post directions.  Meanwhile, try going to
Makemusic.com and downloading Notebook (free) and then download my files. 
Let's see if it works!  I'd love to have some response on this as I have posted
many files and don't want to do it if they aren't accessible to you.  6th grade
sightread "For the Beauty" pretty well, with a few stops to figure out the
higher octave (3rd and 4th position) parts (which are also given in 1st position
octave.)
All the best, Carol Adee

--- On Thu, 11/5/09, starlitepuppets@... <starlitepuppets@...> wrote:

From: starlitepuppets@... <starlitepuppets@...>
Subject: Re: [anawme] New file uploaded to anawme
To: anawme@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 4:46 PM







 











Hello,



This is a request regarding music files. Is it possible to scan the music and
send it to the files as a pdf? That would be really helpful for those of us who
don't have the ability to download finale. Thank you, Connie Manson



-----Original Message-----

From: anawme@yahoogroups. com

To: anawme@yahoogroups. com

Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 1:47 am

Subject: [anawme] New file uploaded to anawme



Hello,



This email message is a notification to let you know that

a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the anawme

group.



File : /Misc./For the Beauty of the Earth - Cello.MUS

Uploaded by : marinwaldorfmusique <bamboorose@sbcgloba l.net>

Description : Please check misc. for score and parts of this arrangement.



You can access this file at the URL:

http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/anawme/ files/Misc. /For%20the% 20Beauty%
20of%20the% 20Earth%20- %20Cello. MUS



To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:

http://help. yahoo.com/ l/us/yahoo/ groups/original/ general.htmlfile s



Regards,



marinwaldorfmusique <bamboorose@sbcgloba l.net>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]