dburga01 wrote:

>Hey guys, just a reminder that tonight is very special Blue Water
>Drift Dive, my live ambient net radio program on StillStream.com.
>Tonight it is my extreme pleasure to invite you to join us for an
>evening with our Different Skies brother Tony Gerber and SPACECRAFT,
>who will be performing LIVE on StillStream in this exclusive net
>concert!! SPACECRAFT is one of the preeminent space music groups, so I
>hope you will not miss this.
>Here are the details:
>- The show begins tonight, Sat Sept 30 at 11p EDT (Sun Oct 1 at 4a
>GMT) and lasts at least four hours (just two hours to go til showtime!)
>
>
Sorry I didn't see this message.  Scott Raymond (WVKR) came for a visit
so I was off the computer most of yesterday.  We wento to Howard's and
together we went to Philly to see Ian Boddy.  We got back late.

Cheers,

Bill

the show was fantastic!! Tony and John laid down some great music and the chat
room was full of the usual suspects from DS and some of Darrells friends also.
Great show Darrell!!!  And to Tony and John. . .
you guys just totaly cooked!
duval


  -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Bill Fox <billyfox@...>
> dburga01 wrote:
>
> >Hey guys, just a reminder that tonight is very special Blue Water
> >Drift Dive, my live ambient net radio program on StillStream.com.
> >Tonight it is my extreme pleasure to invite you to join us for an
> >evening with our Different Skies brother Tony Gerber and SPACECRAFT,
> >who will be performing LIVE on StillStream in this exclusive net
> >concert!! SPACECRAFT is one of the preeminent space music groups, so I
> >hope you will not miss this.
> >Here are the details:
> >- The show begins tonight, Sat Sept 30 at 11p EDT (Sun Oct 1 at 4a
> >GMT) and lasts at least four hours (just two hours to go til showtime!)
> >
> >
> Sorry I didn't see this message.  Scott Raymond (WVKR) came for a visit
> so I was off the computer most of yesterday.  We wento to Howard's and
> together we went to Philly to see Ian Boddy.  We got back late.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bill





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

baffled is good.  hahaha  I'm baffled most of the time.   hehehehe
just trying to make lite on a Sunday morn.
We should all try to get together on Sat nights in the slip stream chat room.
What a hoot. great music, good brownie fueled conversation. What fun   : )
duval
  -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Giles Reaves <gilesreaves@...>
> OK, so it WAS me! Why didn't you address me directly? That's why I
> didn't respond earlier.
> And then the quote you provide is supposed to be some sort of "hard
> evidence" to support your original "opinion"?
>
> This is kinda strange, dude...have I pissed you off somehow?  (I'm
> sorry if I did)
>
> There's nothing wrong with me not wanting to participate if I'm not
> 100% into the scene. Would you want me there is I wasn't 100%?
>
> Totally baffled...
>
> Giles
>
> --- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, "Rus Foster"
> <paintswithsound@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > Well, if you need hard evidence, here you go. Don't know what else
> you
>  > would call it.
>  >
>  >
>  > <On Sep 27, 2006, at 7:38 AM, differentskies@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  > My bottom line:
>  > Without the improvs as they stand I'm not interested in Different
>  > Skies, plain and simple. After last year, I was a little worried that
>  > we were drifting away from that form of musical expression. At DS
>  > through the years, I have come to feel that it's the process, not the
>  > final output, that draws me back year after year. I create structured
>  > music everyday of my life, both for myself and others. I NEED this
>  > space in my life at this time. I will never insist on a direction for
>  > Different Skies (or the improvs for that matter!), but I will quickly
>  > loose interest in an environment where folks are only worried about
>  > the destination and not the journey.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > --- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, Giles Reaves <gilesreaves@>
>  > wrote:
>  >
>  > > BTW, I NEVER talked about "cutting and running", if in fact it
> was me
>  > > you were referring to in your (not so) "Funny" post.
>  >
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi there !
Freakyfreefrancis received IT, seems to work that way !
;-)

> Message du 01/10/06 04:16
> De : "Rus Foster"
> A : differentskies@yahoogroups.com
> Copie à :
> Objet : [differentskies] Testing....
>
> > Is this thing on? Having some hiccups on my end with the internet
> connection.
>
> Rus
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks John - indeed Tony and John tore it up.  Great music!

Also, for ALL DS alumni, you have a standing invitation if you'd like
to play live on StillStream sometime ... just let me know if you're
interested and I can help you set up the software to do it.  It's
really pretty easy to do and I personally think it is very fun and
fulfilling.  Just email me if you are interested.

Cheers!



--- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, darkstr1746@... wrote:
>
> the show was fantastic!! Tony and John laid down some great music
and the chat room was full of the usual suspects from DS and some of
Darrells friends also. Great show Darrell!!!  And to Tony and John. . .
> you guys just totaly cooked!
> duval
>

Gawd, how many brownies did I have last night ... ???  :-)


--- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, darkstr1746@... wrote:
> We should all try to get together on Sat nights in the slip stream
chat room. What a hoot. great music, good brownie fueled conversation.
What fun   : )
> duval

At 11:16 PM 9/29/2006, gilesreaves wrote:

>You lost me here, I don't ever remember replying to your post. Could
>you please provide
>quotes to backup your quite provocative statements? That would help
>us make this a dialog,
>if you're interested in one. Paraphrasing what you THINK I said
>isn't very helpful...
>
>Giles

Well, I certainly didn't mean to be provocative. Interestingly, at
least Rus and I apparently drew the same conclusions from your post
(the salient portion of which Rus has posted with regard to "cutting
and running"). One could suggest that that post of yours had been
provocative, worded as strongly as it was; you made an excellent
point to Rus, however, regarding 100% involvement.

Text-only communication carries limited information, and it seems
that this discussion was a casualty of its deficiency. On the
positive side, you were able to address our misinterpretation of your
earlier statement. After all, others may have gotten similar
impressions. (Whereas an off-list sidebar between you and Rus would
have left the rest of us with the wrong idea.)

I regret that I, a semi-lurker and non-DS-participant, have injected
myself into this discussion. Pardon me as I step aside, if I may...
--
john

Excellent show Tony and John! Thanks Darrel for providing the forum. I had a
great time
chatting with 'yall. When's the next one?

Giles

--- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, "dburga01" <dburga01@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks John - indeed Tony and John tore it up.  Great music!
>
> Also, for ALL DS alumni, you have a standing invitation if you'd like
> to play live on StillStream sometime ... just let me know if you're
> interested and I can help you set up the software to do it.  It's
> really pretty easy to do and I personally think it is very fun and
> fulfilling.  Just email me if you are interested.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
> --- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, darkstr1746@ wrote:
> >
> > the show was fantastic!! Tony and John laid down some great music
> and the chat room was full of the usual suspects from DS and some of
> Darrells friends also. Great show Darrell!!!  And to Tony and John. . .
> > you guys just totaly cooked!
> > duval
> >
>

I really don't know how to respond to someone who won't provide any evidence
that I did
what they said I did. Between you and Rus, I'm ending my part in this (yea, says
everyone
else)! Besides, who wants to listen to a bunch of grown men bicker over what we
said? I
think my point is already WELL known around here.  ;)

You and Rus are free to continue this if you must, but for the sake of the rest
of the list, I
propose we take this off list. Any objections? Didn't think so!  ;-)

with apologies to all, especially Rus and John (if I have offended you),

Giles

--- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, John Mahoney <jmahoney@...> wrote:
>
> At 11:16 PM 9/29/2006, gilesreaves wrote:
>
> >You lost me here, I don't ever remember replying to your post. Could
> >you please provide
> >quotes to backup your quite provocative statements? That would help
> >us make this a dialog,
> >if you're interested in one. Paraphrasing what you THINK I said
> >isn't very helpful...
> >
> >Giles
>
> Well, I certainly didn't mean to be provocative. Interestingly, at
> least Rus and I apparently drew the same conclusions from your post
> (the salient portion of which Rus has posted with regard to "cutting
> and running"). One could suggest that that post of yours had been
> provocative, worded as strongly as it was; you made an excellent
> point to Rus, however, regarding 100% involvement.
>
> Text-only communication carries limited information, and it seems
> that this discussion was a casualty of its deficiency. On the
> positive side, you were able to address our misinterpretation of your
> earlier statement. After all, others may have gotten similar
> impressions. (Whereas an off-list sidebar between you and Rus would
> have left the rest of us with the wrong idea.)
>
> I regret that I, a semi-lurker and non-DS-participant, have injected
> myself into this discussion. Pardon me as I step aside, if I may...
> --
> john
>

If you mean "when is the next time I broadcast", I do it every
Saturday night at the same time, 11p Eastern / 8p Pacific.  Would love
to see everyone there.  Plus there are several other weekly shows,
which are all great:

http://www.stillstream.com/schedule.php

If you mean "when is the next time SPACECRAFT will play live on
StillStream" ... Tony will need to jump in on that one!  Like I said,
all DS alums have a standing invite to perform live on StillStream
whenever they like, just let me know ...  :-)


--- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, "gilesreaves" <gilesreaves@...>
wrote:
>
> Excellent show Tony and John! Thanks Darrel for providing the forum.
I had a great time
> chatting with 'yall. When's the next one?
>
> Giles
>

Dear list:
I was not offended in any way, and, in turn, I hope that I've caused
no offense.

Just wanted to be clear about that. I'll waste no more of your
collective time with this.

Cheers!
--
john

Giles Reaves wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sep 28, 2006, at 8:36 PM, differentskies@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:differentskies%40yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>  > Re: Concert Jam realities reveal possible alternative
>  >
>  > Posted by: "Brian Good" bsgood@...
> <mailto:bsgood%40adelphia.net> chetroketl
>  >
>  > I'm pretty much in agreement with Rus's and Richard's takes on the jam
>  > situation. It's all well and good to say that 18 of us can play
>  > together coherently as long as we all just listen, but, after four
>  > years, I can say that in practice it doesn't seem to happen often.
>
> So you are saying it's possible if we listen, but since it hasn't
> happened yet (in your opinion) you are ready to abandon the concept?

Well, they say one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over
and over but expecting different outcomes. :-)

No, I'm not ready to abandon the concept. But maybe we ought to see what
our points of agreement are.  Do you agree that often/sometimes/once in
awhile, the jams wander off into pointless loud/opaque playing, where
musicality gets trampled?

If you don't agree, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  If
you do agree, what can we do to make the situation better? Certainly one
approach is to do what we've been doing, and make sure that the lapses
never make it to CD/DVD.  But I'd like to find an alternative, a way of
raising our game so that kind of thing happens less frequently.

One thing that might be worthwhile is to have "listening practice."  I
know, I know, sounds too touchy-feely.

What about something like this--a bunch of us arrange ourselves in a
circle (don't worry, Mike--not for performance).  One person starts
playing, and after a short time gets the attention of another person,
who takes over; the musical "lead" is passed from person to person, with
only one playing at a time.  The idea here is to respect what the
previous person has done, and use it as a jumping off point for your own
contribution. Even though only one person is playing at a time,
everybody has to listen, because nobody knows who's going to play next.

The next stage is to do exercises where more than one person is playing
at once, so each player has to follow more than one line. Eventually
we'll have most people playing at the same time.

I have no idea whether anyone would be interested in this kind of thing;
I don't even know if most people see the jams as problematic. If there's
interest, we can run a session early in the week, and see if it's
useful. And Giles, and anybody else--please offer suggestions of your
own. I'm convinced that, like just about everything else musical,
listening can be improved with practice; the only question is, what's
the best way to practice?

Brian

--- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, Brian Good <bsgood@...> wrote:
> I'm convinced that, like just about everything else musical,
> listening can be improved with practice; the only question is, what's
> the best way to practice?

Carnegie Hall, Carnegie Hall, Carnegie Hall...

oops, wrong joke.

Uhhh, nevermind;^)

-Jim

Now your talking!

As I said (and said, and said), let's not blame or change the process. Let's
improve our
listening skills so the improvs can improve. I really like your suggestion about
some sort
of exercises in listening. Let's approach from that angle and see what's there.

How 'bout the old jazz "trading 4s", but where you have to respond to the
previous
persons lines. Try playing back what you heard, or at least try to sound like
you heard
what the other person played. Brian, you may have done stuff like that in jazz
combos (as
have I), but many folks may never have tried it.

There's bound to be plenty of other exercises we can create to foster this type
of listening
and responding. (I think Darrel asked this question a while back and I never
responded)

[new age mode ON]
I'll throw this out to any interested parties. I've practiced meditation on and
off for years. It
has really helped my listening, and here's how. The practice I followed involved
focusing
on something, your breath, a memorized passage, or just observing your thoughts
without
thinking about them. One of the most common aspects of the practices is to
gently bring
your mind back to the focus point when it inevitably wanders. This is exactly
what
happens in music performance. You wander, catch yourself and bring your
attention back.
This has seriously helped me to keep my attention on listening (both internal
listening to
hear what to play, and external listening to hear what other's played). AND it
helps when
you wander (which you will!) to gently bring your attention back to listening.
As always,
YMMV.

Who else has ideas on how to promote better listening?

Giles

BTW, were you responding to my insanity quote (below) or did we make the same
quote
coincidentally?

--- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, Brian Good <bsgood@...> wrote:
>
> Giles Reaves wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 28, 2006, at 8:36 PM, differentskies@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:differentskies%40yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> >
> >  > Re: Concert Jam realities reveal possible alternative
> >  >
> >  > Posted by: "Brian Good" bsgood@...
> > <mailto:bsgood%40adelphia.net> chetroketl
> >  >
> >  > I'm pretty much in agreement with Rus's and Richard's takes on the jam
> >  > situation. It's all well and good to say that 18 of us can play
> >  > together coherently as long as we all just listen, but, after four
> >  > years, I can say that in practice it doesn't seem to happen often.
> >
> > So you are saying it's possible if we listen, but since it hasn't
> > happened yet (in your opinion) you are ready to abandon the concept?
>
> Well, they say one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over
> and over but expecting different outcomes. :-)
>
> No, I'm not ready to abandon the concept. But maybe we ought to see what
> our points of agreement are.  Do you agree that often/sometimes/once in
> awhile, the jams wander off into pointless loud/opaque playing, where
> musicality gets trampled?
>
> If you don't agree, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  If
> you do agree, what can we do to make the situation better? Certainly one
> approach is to do what we've been doing, and make sure that the lapses
> never make it to CD/DVD.  But I'd like to find an alternative, a way of
> raising our game so that kind of thing happens less frequently.
>
> One thing that might be worthwhile is to have "listening practice."  I
> know, I know, sounds too touchy-feely.
>
> What about something like this--a bunch of us arrange ourselves in a
> circle (don't worry, Mike--not for performance).  One person starts
> playing, and after a short time gets the attention of another person,
> who takes over; the musical "lead" is passed from person to person, with
> only one playing at a time.  The idea here is to respect what the
> previous person has done, and use it as a jumping off point for your own
> contribution. Even though only one person is playing at a time,
> everybody has to listen, because nobody knows who's going to play next.
>
> The next stage is to do exercises where more than one person is playing
> at once, so each player has to follow more than one line. Eventually
> we'll have most people playing at the same time.
>
> I have no idea whether anyone would be interested in this kind of thing;
> I don't even know if most people see the jams as problematic. If there's
> interest, we can run a session early in the week, and see if it's
> useful. And Giles, and anybody else--please offer suggestions of your
> own. I'm convinced that, like just about everything else musical,
> listening can be improved with practice; the only question is, what's
> the best way to practice?
>
> Brian
>

Nice one, Jim!

--- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Combs" <jwcombs@...> wrote:
>
> --- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, Brian Good <bsgood@> wrote:
> > I'm convinced that, like just about everything else musical,
> > listening can be improved with practice; the only question is, what's
> > the best way to practice?
>
> Carnegie Hall, Carnegie Hall, Carnegie Hall...
>
> oops, wrong joke.
>
> Uhhh, nevermind;^)
>
> -Jim
>

I will chime in, eventually.  I'm still trying to deal with the "is
18 muscicians really different than 6 musicians" problem.  In my
gut I feel that the answer is "no".  Thus far, I have nor real
rational reason to believe that, but I am working on it.  Look for
a data dump coming shortly.

John 3

--- gilesreaves <gilesreaves@...> wrote:

> Now your talking!
>
> As I said (and said, and said), let's not blame or change the
> process. Let's improve our
> listening skills so the improvs can improve. I really like your
> suggestion about some sort
> of exercises in listening. Let's approach from that angle and see
> what's there.
>
> How 'bout the old jazz "trading 4s", but where you have to
> respond to the previous
> persons lines. Try playing back what you heard, or at least try
> to sound like you heard
> what the other person played. Brian, you may have done stuff like
> that in jazz combos (as
> have I), but many folks may never have tried it.
>
> There's bound to be plenty of other exercises we can create to
> foster this type of listening
> and responding. (I think Darrel asked this question a while back
> and I never responded)
>
> [new age mode ON]
> I'll throw this out to any interested parties. I've practiced
> meditation on and off for years. It
> has really helped my listening, and here's how. The practice I
> followed involved focusing
> on something, your breath, a memorized passage, or just observing
> your thoughts without
> thinking about them. One of the most common aspects of the
> practices is to gently bring
> your mind back to the focus point when it inevitably wanders.
> This is exactly what
> happens in music performance. You wander, catch yourself and
> bring your attention back.
> This has seriously helped me to keep my attention on listening
> (both internal listening to
> hear what to play, and external listening to hear what other's
> played). AND it helps when
> you wander (which you will!) to gently bring your attention back
> to listening. As always,
> YMMV.
>
> Who else has ideas on how to promote better listening?
>
> Giles
>
> BTW, were you responding to my insanity quote (below) or did we
> make the same quote
> coincidentally?
>
> --- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, Brian Good <bsgood@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Giles Reaves wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sep 28, 2006, at 8:36 PM, differentskies@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:differentskies%40yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >  > Re: Concert Jam realities reveal possible alternative
> > >  >
> > >  > Posted by: "Brian Good" bsgood@...
> > > <mailto:bsgood%40adelphia.net> chetroketl
> > >  >
> > >  > I'm pretty much in agreement with Rus's and Richard's
> takes on the jam
> > >  > situation. It's all well and good to say that 18 of us can
> play
> > >  > together coherently as long as we all just listen, but,
> after four
> > >  > years, I can say that in practice it doesn't seem to
> happen often.
> > >
> > > So you are saying it's possible if we listen, but since it
> hasn't
> > > happened yet (in your opinion) you are ready to abandon the
> concept?
> >
> > Well, they say one definition of insanity is doing the same
> thing over
> > and over but expecting different outcomes. :-)
> >
> > No, I'm not ready to abandon the concept. But maybe we ought to
> see what
> > our points of agreement are.  Do you agree that
> often/sometimes/once in
> > awhile, the jams wander off into pointless loud/opaque playing,
> where
> > musicality gets trampled?
> >
> > If you don't agree, then I guess we'll have to agree to
> disagree.  If
> > you do agree, what can we do to make the situation better?
> Certainly one
> > approach is to do what we've been doing, and make sure that the
> lapses
> > never make it to CD/DVD.  But I'd like to find an alternative,
> a way of
> > raising our game so that kind of thing happens less frequently.
> >
> > One thing that might be worthwhile is to have "listening
> practice."  I
> > know, I know, sounds too touchy-feely.
> >
> > What about something like this--a bunch of us arrange ourselves
> in a
> > circle (don't worry, Mike--not for performance).  One person
> starts
> > playing, and after a short time gets the attention of another
> person,
> > who takes over; the musical "lead" is passed from person to
> person, with
> > only one playing at a time.  The idea here is to respect what
> the
> > previous person has done, and use it as a jumping off point for
> your own
> > contribution. Even though only one person is playing at a time,
>
> > everybody has to listen, because nobody knows who's going to
> play next.
> >
> > The next stage is to do exercises where more than one person is
> playing
> > at once, so each player has to follow more than one line.
> Eventually
> > we'll have most people playing at the same time.
> >
> > I have no idea whether anyone would be interested in this kind
> of thing;
> > I don't even know if most people see the jams as problematic.
> If there's
> > interest, we can run a session early in the week, and see if
> it's
> > useful. And Giles, and anybody else--please offer suggestions
> of your
> > own. I'm convinced that, like just about everything else
> musical,
> > listening can be improved with practice; the only question is,
> what's
> > the best way to practice?
> >
> > Brian
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- Nick Rothwell wrote:

> I'm not presenting this as a data point pro- or con-
> the circle idea (although my personal feeling is
> mindly con-) but just showing that it can work, in
> the absence of (for example) asshole engineers.


Who says we're not having John 3 engineer again, though?


(...zing!...)


=====
David Herpich
tepmuseq@...
Emerald Adrift - electronic music to annoy your robots
http://www.doubtfulpalace.com/artists/EmeraldAdrift/index.html
=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 04:44:32 -0000, "gilesreaves"
<gilesreaves@...> wrote:

>Who else has ideas on how to promote better listening?

Must they be legal? If so, not me.

>BTW, were you responding to my insanity quote (below) or did we make the same
quote
>coincidentally?

Was that the one about prohibition? ;)

Paul
---
Paul Nagle - SoftRoom Music - www.softroom.co.uk
        www.JointIntelligenceCommittee.com

--- D. K. Herpich wrote:
> > Thus right off the bat, I suggest that my arx,
> > "Cloud-Gazing," be cut.


--- Joe McMahon <mcmahon@...> wrote:
> AAACK NO NO NO er um. Gee, I'd really miss it.


Thanks, Joe.  It's very nice of you to say something -- albeit
something Bill the Cat might say! -- so kind about the piece.

Seriously, I appreciated getting such a passionate response.  Always a
good sign!

(You'll also note that I reply to my fan mail with lightning speed...)


=====
David Herpich
tepmuseq@...
Emerald Adrift - electronic music to annoy your robots
http://www.doubtfulpalace.com/artists/EmeraldAdrift/index.html
=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

yea, trading fours is cool, or eights. Four being probably more managable as
most of us can still count that high.   : )
duval

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "gilesreaves" <gilesreaves@...>
Now your talking!

As I said (and said, and said), let's not blame or change the process. Let's
improve our
listening skills so the improvs can improve. I really like your suggestion about
some sort
of exercises in listening. Let's approach from that angle and see what's there.

How 'bout the old jazz "trading 4s", but where you have to respond to the
previous
persons lines. Try playing back what you heard, or at least try to sound like
you heard
what the other person played. Brian, you may have done stuff like that in jazz
combos (as
have I), but many folks may never have tried it.

There's bound to be plenty of other exercises we can create to foster this type
of listening
and responding. (I think Darrel asked this question a while back and I never
responded)

[new age mode ON]
I'll throw this out to any interested parties. I've practiced meditation on and
off for years. It
has really helped my listening, and here's how. The practice I followed involved
focusing
on something, your breath, a memorized passage, or just observing your thoughts
without
thinking about them. One of the most common aspects of the practices is to
gently bring
your mind back to the focus point when it inevitably wanders. This is exactly
what
happens in music performance. You wander, catch yourself and bring your
attention back.
This has seriously helped me to keep my attention on listening (both internal
listening to
hear what to play, and external listening to hear what other's played). AND it
helps when
you wander (which you will!) to gently bring your attention back to listening.
As always,
YMMV.

Who else has ideas on how to promote better listening?

Giles

BTW, were you responding to my insanity quote (below) or did we make the same
quote
coincidentally?

--- In differentskies@yahoogroups.com, Brian Good <bsgood@...> wrote:
>
> Giles Reaves wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 28, 2006, at 8:36 PM, differentskies@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:differentskies%40yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Re: Concert Jam realities reveal possible alternative
> > >
> > > Posted by: "Brian Good" bsgood@...
> > <mailto:bsgood%40adelphia.net> chetroketl
> > >
> > > I'm pretty much in agreement with Rus's and Richard's takes on the jam
> > > situation. It's all well and good to say that 18 of us can play
> > > together coherently as long as we all just listen, but, after four
> > > years, I can say that in practice it doesn't seem to happen often.
> >
> > So you are saying it's possible if we listen, but since it hasn't
> > happened yet (in your opinion) you are ready to abandon the concept?
>
> Well, they say one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over
> and over but expecting different outcomes. :-)
>
> No, I'm not ready to abandon the concept. But maybe we ought to see what
> our points of agreement are. Do you agree that often/sometimes/once in
> awhile, the jams wander off into pointless loud/opaque playing, where
> musicality gets trampled?
>
> If you don't agree, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If
> you do agree, what can we do to make the situation better? Certainly one
> approach is to do what we've been doing, and make sure that the lapses
> never make it to CD/DVD. But I'd like to find an alternative, a way of
> raising our game so that kind of thing happens less frequently.
>
> One thing that might be worthwhile is to have "listening practice." I
> know, I know, sounds too touchy-feely.
>
> What about something like this--a bunch of us arrange ourselves in a
> circle (don't worry, Mike--not for performance). One person starts
> playing, and after a short time gets the attention of another person,
> who takes over; the musical "lead" is passed from person to person, with
> only one playing at a time. The idea here is to respect what the
> previous person has done, and use it as a jumping off point for your own
> contribution. Even though only one person is playing at a time,
> everybody has to listen, because nobody knows who's going to play next.
>
> The next stage is to do exercises where more than one person is playing
> at once, so each player has to follow more than one line. Eventually
> we'll have most people playing at the same time.
>
> I have no idea whether anyone would be interested in this kind of thing;
> I don't even know if most people see the jams as problematic. If there's
> interest, we can run a session early in the week, and see if it's
> useful. And Giles, and anybody else--please offer suggestions of your
> own. I'm convinced that, like just about everything else musical,
> listening can be improved with practice; the only question is, what's
> the best way to practice?
>
> Brian
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello everyone
Hong and I are finally home safely after our travels.
We had a great time at DS and also got to see much of the country before
and after.
Thanks to everyone for their contributions.
It is a pleasure to work with so many talented and varied musicians.
You all have an open invitation to visit us in the Poconos if you get
the chance.
I will probably post a few more comments after I've gotten through the
hundreds of emails.

Brian Good wrote:

>Well, they say one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over
>and over but expecting different outcomes. :-)
>
>
In science, that's definitely true.  With my computers, not so much.
Sometimes I just have to INSIST that my computer do what it's supposed
to do when I take "the right steps" and get a wrong result.  In music,
no two free improvs go the same way even if all else is equal.  In that
case, I *expect* different results.  But that's because we humans bring
only a portion of our experience to a single jam and a slightly
different portion of our experience to the very next one.

>No, I'm not ready to abandon the concept. But maybe we ought to see what
>our points of agreement are.  Do you agree that often/sometimes/once in
>awhile, the jams wander off into pointless loud/opaque playing, where
>musicality gets trampled?
>
>
I think that we all agree that this happens.  This is the crux of the
issue we've been beating to death.  And as good as the results have been
at times, we musicians tend to talk about the bad parts in order to weed
them out.  Let's not forget to take a moment to congratulate ourselves
on a job well done.  ...
...
...
Now let's get back to self improvement.

>One thing that might be worthwhile is to have "listening practice."  I
>know, I know, sounds too touchy-feely.
>
>What about something like this--a bunch of us arrange ourselves in a
>circle (don't worry, Mike--not for performance).  One person starts
>playing, and after a short time gets the attention of another person,
>who takes over; the musical "lead" is passed from person to person, with
>only one playing at a time.  The idea here is to respect what the
>previous person has done, and use it as a jumping off point for your own
>contribution. Even though only one person is playing at a time,
>everybody has to listen, because nobody knows who's going to play next.
>
>The next stage is to do exercises where more than one person is playing
>at once, so each player has to follow more than one line. Eventually
>we'll have most people playing at the same time.
>
>
This is an outstanding idea.  We spend all year practicing our craft,
from how to tweak a parameter on hardware or in software, to how to
wiggle our fingers and press strings and keys.  Few of us have much of
an opportunity to practice active listening in an improvisational
environment except during Different Skies.  So this, and any other ideas
on how to practice listening, is the direction I hope this conversation
takes.  Who knows?  Perhaps some of us will find opportunities to put
into action Brian's and other forthcoming practice plans for active
listening between now and October 2007.

Cheers,

Bill

gilesreaves wrote:

>Now your talking!
>
>As I said (and said, and said), let's not blame or change the process. Let's
improve our
>listening skills so the improvs can improve. I really like your suggestion
about some sort
>of exercises in listening. Let's approach from that angle and see what's there.
>
>How 'bout the old jazz "trading 4s", but where you have to respond to the
previous
>persons lines. Try playing back what you heard, or at least try to sound like
you heard
>what the other person played. Brian, you may have done stuff like that in jazz
combos (as
>have I), but many folks may never have tried it.
>
>
John (Sherpa) and I did this during a portion of a session where I was
playing the electric ukuklele.  Not only was it good practice for
listening, we both had shit eating grins on our faces the entire time.
(John and I being very different sorts of guitar players would have had
a great time if I had been playing guitar.  But being on the
less-than-familiar-to-mt ukulele, the scary/fun factor was only heightened!)

>[new age mode ON]
>I'll throw this out to any interested parties. I've practiced meditation on and
off for years. It
>has really helped my listening, and here's how. The practice I followed
involved focusing
>on something, your breath, a memorized passage, or just observing your thoughts
without
>thinking about them. One of the most common aspects of the practices is to
gently bring
>your mind back to the focus point when it inevitably wanders. This is exactly
what
>happens in music performance. You wander, catch yourself and bring your
attention back.
>This has seriously helped me to keep my attention on listening (both internal
listening to
>hear what to play, and external listening to hear what other's played). AND it
helps when
>you wander (which you will!) to gently bring your attention back to listening.
As always,
>YMMV.
>
>
Having never meditated, I'd need some more help in fully understanding
how you do the above.  Sounds like it could help.  I think that I might
reach a meditative-like state when I listen to a recording to try to
pick out a specific part.  My attention wanders to other aspects of the
recording and then I must refocus my attention on the part I'm trying to
learn.  (Usually, I'm trying to learn a bass part for my Classic Rock
band.)  I also seem to trance out at Different Skies and at Ricochet
Gathering when I have an extended part to play during an improv session.

>Who else has ideas on how to promote better listening?
>
>
I wish I did.  If I invent any or come across any in my travels, I
promise to share.

Cheers,

Bill

On 2 Oct 2006, at 05:44, gilesreaves wrote:

> How 'bout the old jazz "trading 4s", but where you have to respond
> to the previous
> persons lines. Try playing back what you heard, or at least try to
> sound like you heard
> what the other person played.

This sounds like a good exercise for the melodic/harmonic end of the
musical spectrum, but doesn't really work for the soundscaping end,
or where musicians don't have instruments which can do melodic parts
(*). (I don't think I could follow Brian with the P3, or with the
cracklebox.) However, finding analogous exercises (or even a
vocabulary) which make sense for those of us leaning to the art
school set would be an interesting endeavour in itself. It's not
something I recall having formally (although I've done it several
times at varying degrees of informality).

(*) not that I don't think it's a valuable exercise even for the
soundscaping set - I think having some good melodic chops (and for
that matter, rhythmic chops) is useful for everyone. And certainly,
if I'm back next year, I'd like to do a lot more soloing. I just need
a keyboard with a half-decent pitchwanger.

	 -- N.


    nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://
www.cassiel.com

gilesreaves wrote:
>
>
> Now your talking!
>
> As I said (and said, and said), let's not blame or change the process.
> Let's improve our
> listening skills so the improvs can improve. I really like your
> suggestion about some sort
> of exercises in listening. Let's approach from that angle and see what's
> there.
>
> How 'bout the old jazz "trading 4s", but where you have to respond to
> the previous
> persons lines. Try playing back what you heard, or at least try to sound
> like you heard
> what the other person played. Brian, you may have done stuff like that
> in jazz combos (as
> have I), but many folks may never have tried it.

I didn't want to be that specific.  As Nick points out below, something
as literal as trading fours might be difficult when you have such a
diverse collection of noisemakers. But I still think the general idea is
useful. Solving the problem of what to play on a melodic instrument in
response to something from a cracklebox is important, because that kind
of thing is going to come up in the jams. Getting this right--the
ability to work interactively with people playing all kinds of
contraptions--is what differentiates what we do from more traditional
ensemble playing. So if we do the kind of exercise I suggested, I would
really like to include as many nonstandard instruments as possible,
though it would probably be worthwhile to talk about it a bunch beforehand.

Brian

... when you get into your mid-forties and have to chase two kids, a
25-hour fast with no food or water can really beat you down. :-p

I won't be recovered enough to even think of answering emails until
tomorrow night, probably, and on Thursday I leave for San Francisco
for AES. Carry on without me and play nice, kids. If it's an
emergency, call or email me offlist, but don't expect anything like
my usual volume for probably a week or so.

mike

--
       "Well, music is music, even if it sounds like two coffee machines
        making out at a bonfire.  Maybe."                (d. k. herpich)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mike metlay * atomic city * po 17083 boulder co 80308 * metlay@...
mindSpiral _the 1 is silent_ now on CD:   http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/mindspiral

> "Well, music is music, even if it sounds like two coffee
> machines making out at a bonfire.  Maybe."
> (d. k. herpich)


"Well, art is art, isn't it?  Still, on the other hand, water is water!
  And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew
them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb
does.  Now, uh...  Now you tell me what you know."
- Groucho Marx (in Animal Crackers)


Always steal from the best, even if you intend to re-sell the spoils
for less than they're worth.



=====
David Herpich
tepmuseq@...
Emerald Adrift - electronic music to annoy your robots
http://www.doubtfulpalace.com/artists/EmeraldAdrift/index.html
=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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DK Herpich wrote:
>  > "Well, music is music, even if it sounds like two coffee
>>  machines making out at a bonfire.  Maybe."
>>  (d. k. herpich)
>
>
>"Well, art is art, isn't it?  Still, on the other hand, water is water!
>  And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew
>them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb
>does.  Now, uh...  Now you tell me what you know."
>- Groucho Marx (in Animal Crackers)
>
>Always steal from the best, even if you intend to re-sell the spoils
>for less than they're worth.

The LAW must be obeyed. The .sig has been publicly noted, and
therefore it must die.

mike

--
       Klaus Schulze could be said to be the ultimate bedroom musician -
     major chunks of his output sound like he is fast asleep. (o. pakarinen)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mike metlay * atomic city * po 17083 boulder co 80308 * metlay@...
mindSpiral _the 1 is silent_ now on CD:   http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/mindspiral

http://tinyurl.com/o2wj2

...

Dennis

(No snappy sig file today,thanks!)

>If you mean "when is the next time I broadcast", I do it every
>Saturday night at the same time, 11p Eastern / 8p Pacific.  Would love
>to see everyone there.  Plus there are several other weekly shows,
>which are all great:
>
>http://www.stillstream.com/schedule.php
>
>If you mean "when is the next time SPACECRAFT will play live on
>StillStream" ... Tony will need to jump in on that one!  Like I said,
>all DS alums have a standing invite to perform live on StillStream
>whenever they like, just let me know ...  :-)

Gurgh. Meh. Ummf. Must. Do. Show. Gnaaah.

Sorry, still recovering from yesterday... but we should talk about
this, Darrell. It just happens that Saturday night at 9 PM is usually
when a live mindSpiral show wraps up at the Fiske, so we could open a
live stream and play an encore for the audience after the main show's
done. And of course there are other opportunities without the
planetarium getting in the way, too. I have a lot of people from DS
coming out and visiting this spring at various times, possibly
including Brian, Johns 3D, Foxy, Tony, and now Giles is practically a
neighbor too.

I've been looking for other outlets for mindSpiral music besides the
Fiske shows, and this is a really cool possibility, especially for
people who come to visit and jam over a Saturday when the
planetarium's not available. My hospitality here in Boulder isn't
precisely the Waldorf Astoria, but I love having visitors over...

mike

--
       Klaus Schulze could be said to be the ultimate bedroom musician -
     major chunks of his output sound like he is fast asleep. (o. pakarinen)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mike metlay * atomic city * po 17083 boulder co 80308 * metlay@...
mindSpiral _the 1 is silent_ now on CD:   http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/mindspiral