Last week I went to the "PCB-West" conference in the silicon valley.
Sponsored by the "Printed Circuit design" magazine,  They had a "Free"
day where one could attend the panels. Like many others I chose to
attend the RoHS panel.

Basically I sense a train wreak here. There is a lot of FUD happening.
The gist of the panel was when one engineer asked about enforcement. It
came down to "Have your lawyer call my lawyer." In other words they were
telling us engineers that we need to study law and keep a paper trail of
what we use in designs.

At the end of the panel I kept thinking. The difference between a police
state and a totalitarian state is that a totalitarian state does not
require any paperwork before they take you away. At least now there will
be a paper trail. So much for the paperless society. I think that went
the way of Johnson's "Great Society."

I guess this went the way of other promises of my childhood. "Better
living through chemistry," the SST and vacations on the moon.

The conference was aimed at larger corporations, The ones that can spend
5 figures on Printed Circuit design software. At the same time there are
a number of "small" board shops that are looking to the low end of the
scale,  I was there to see if I could lower the cost of the PC board as
that is 50 percent of the cost of my MIDI file player.

If the RoHS (Reduction of hazardous Substance) laws are successful in
Europe, then California and the City of New York will implement similar
measures. This is not about lead. Cadmium, and some forms of Bromine and
Chrome are also illegal to sell into the EU after July 1st 2006.

What I sense it that a lot of the small time operators will go
underground. On the other hand this initiative is driven by the big
boys. The chip makers, who gain by having the consumer shoulder the
cost. If they do not need to purchase these substances and protect
themselves from damages, then they gain in the long run.

Still as one engineer in the panel discussion pointed out, 99% of lead
is used in storage batteries. The electronics lead only accounts for .01
percent of industrial lead use.

I am still waiting to see if these same European communities are willing
to sacrifice their cathedrals. Especially the windows, which are leaded
glass held together by lead, which needs to be replaces about every 150
or so years. Then there is the organ pipes (Mentioned) and the roofs of
these buildings.

We will also have to tear down the Forum in Rome, as the Romans used
lead expansion joints to hold things together. (In the 19th century some
of these were replaced with iron, which oxidized and split the stone due
to it's rigidity.)

By the way. Military and Medical are exempt from RoHS. And yes there is
an exception for bullets, as long as they are not hollow point.

I am going to send a separate posting from one of my microelectronics
forums.







Spencer_Lists wrote:

> Greetings Bob,
>
>
> As usual in our society, the media masks the real issue in trying to
> sell advertising. Lead is a poison and causes serious health problems.
> It is a good idea to not make your water pipes and food storage
> containers out of lead. It is also important to consider the effect of
> lead on young people and the effects of cumulative exposure of toxins
> of all types. It is not important to warn people that they must wash
> their hands after using their DVD player because it may contain lead.
> It is exactly this sort of practice that causes people to have no
> faith in information sources. Lead is bad, asbestos is bad, drugs are
> bad, unless they are sold by the same people who bought your "elected"
> officials.
>
>
> Monday, April 3, 2006, 12:02:01 PM, you wrote:
>
>>
>
>
>
> THANK you, Mr. Bullock, for talking SANELY about the lead
> non-issue!  I worked for the telephone company for 30 years working
> with lead-acid batteries and diesel engines, in asbestos-insulated
> rooms.  I do have several health problems, but NOT ONE of them is due
> to lead or asbestos!
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Bob
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
>
> Spencer_Lists Chase        mailto:lists@...
>
> 67550 Bell Springs Rd.
>
> Garberville,  CA 95542    Postal service only.
>
> Laytonville, CA 95454    UPS only.
>
> Spencer@... <mailto:Spencer@...>
>
> http://www.spencerserolls.com
>
> http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm
>
> (707) 984-8356
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     *  Visit your group "e-valves
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/e-valves>" on the web.
>            *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>        e-valves-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       <mailto:e-valves-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>            *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

--- In e-valves@yahoogroups.com, "D.L. Bullock" <d.l.bullock@...> wrote:
>
> However, if yours is good and you want to tap into it.  you may cut
out a section and push a
> section of rubber tracker tubing over the lead and then to a T or a
Y to run to your
> solenoids.
>

Thanks for the advice. For now I'm going to steer clear of it just to
avoid damaging it. I'm real leery of taking hacksaw to thin lead
pipe--not sure how to do a neat job of cutting it, plus any mod to the
piping is a major point of no return. :)

But I'll file the idea for future reference.

--Steve

Greetings Bob,

As usual in our society, the media masks the real issue in trying to sell advertising. Lead is a poison and causes serious health problems. It is a good idea to not make your water pipes and food storage containers out of lead. It is also important to consider the effect of lead on young people and the effects of cumulative exposure of toxins of all types. It is not important to warn people that they must wash their hands after using their DVD player because it may contain lead. It is exactly this sort of practice that causes people to have no faith in information sources. Lead is bad, asbestos is bad, drugs are bad, unless they are sold by the same people who bought your "elected" officials. 

Monday, April 3, 2006, 12:02:01 PM, you wrote:

-- 

Best regards,

Spencer_Lists Chase        mailto:lists@...

67550 Bell Springs Rd.

Garberville,  CA 95542    Postal service only.

Laytonville, CA 95454    UPS only.

Spencer@...

http://www.spencerserolls.com

http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm

(707) 984-8356

THANK you, Mr. Bullock, for talking SANELY about the lead
non-issue!  I worked for the telephone company for 30 years working
with lead-acid batteries and diesel engines, in asbestos-insulated
rooms.  I do have several health problems, but NOT ONE of them is due
to lead or asbestos!

Regards,
Bob

At 10:52 4/3/2006, D.L. Bullock wrote:
>Let us not be whipped into a frenzy from media hype about the
>so-called "dangers"  of lead tubing.  You are never going to be able
>to handle enough of the lead tubing in your player piano to ever
>suffer any degradation of health from touching it...or even
>measurable blood levels.  In order to get any perceivable amount of
>lead in your system you would have to sleep on top of it for years,
>eat it, breathe it, and keep it in contact with your skin for most
>of the day most days of the month.  Don't be fooled by the
>ridiculous screaming about asbestos, either.  Remember the only
>people who suffered with asbestosis were the people sitting 8 hours
>a day 5 days a week for 30 years in the asbestos plant with white
>snow of asbestos flying around the whole time.  No one who pulled up
>tile flooring with asbestos, and no one who removed insulation from
>the pipes in their basement ever came down with any health
>consequences from it.  But certain companies have made millions from
>asbestos removal because of fear of the public and legislatures who
>passed laws to prohibit contact because of these myths.
>
>The media is all over this lead thing right now.  We hear the media
>screaming every week about lead poisoning in the kids.  They did not
>get lead poisoning the way the media thinks.  Any poor child making
>mud pies or playing in the front yard of their house which is 5
>miles or less from a freeway will have some amount of lead.  We
>burned leaded gasoline for 60 or more years that caused a constant
>rain of particulate to fall in our yards within five miles of a
>major freeway or thoroughfare with cars pumping it out.  The kids
>did not get the lead by eating the windowsills in the house.  If a
>child does chew on the window molding, then the child has pica which
>is a mineral deficiency disease.  If you give them a good mineral
>supplement they stop eating the house.  It works the same way with a
>horse that has pica and is eating the feed bunk.  Give him a mineral
>supplement and he quits eating the barn door as well.
>
>Do not fear lead, any fear you may have of player piano's lead
>tubing is over the top unless you are going to knit yourself clothing from it.
>
>The idiot legislatures in the EU has recently outlawed all
>lead.  The unexpected results have started coming in.  The pipe
>organ industry is now legally pushed out of business in Europe
>because of media frenzy over lead poisoning.  I have never heard of
>anyone in the organ industry who died or even suffered from lead
>poisoning.  Yet we in the organ building and repair industry handle
>lead every day.  90% of all organ pipes are made from tin, antimony,
>and lead alloy.  It is called solder and pipes are soldered together
>with more solder.  How about the electronics industries who can no
>longer solder together electronic components.  That effectively
>shuts down all high tech industry...All from fear of lead.----Ridiculous!
>
>Most lead tubing on a tracker bar will show signs of deterioration
>if you blow through it you will see plumes of paper chips and lead
>oxide fly out.  We usually remove the lead and replace it with
>neoprene because we cannot trust it to last another thirty years.
>
>However, if yours is good and you want to tap into it.  you may cut
>out a section and push a section of rubber tracker tubing over the
>lead and then to a T or a Y to run to your solenoids.
>
>If anyone has a problem with lead levels in the blood there is a new
>product that called ImmunoSTART that has been determined to
>completely remove lead levels in the blood in most cases within 90
>days.  (as well as around 30 other heavy metals or toxins).  I take
>it most days because it also has major health benefits for me.
>
>You will have to replace all lead tubing eventually as the shiny
>lead breaks down into white powder and begins to cypher this note
>and that.  Consider removing it and replacing it with neoprene.  It
>can't hurt and then you can tap into it for solenoids.
>
>
>D.L. Bullock
><http://www.pianoworld.us/>www.pianoworld.us
>www.WellnessSecretsRevealed.com

Hi Steve.  I had lead tubing in my Autopiano action, but it was
beginning to turn to powder.  Rather than try to refit lead tubing
(even though it is available), I put adapter nipples from PPC in, and
used rubber tubing.  It made a much better looking job than the
powdery lead tubing (however neat it looked), and corrected a bunch
of leaks at the same time. Take a look at the condition of the
tubing.  If it is lead, and it has been stored or used in a moist
environment, I can almost guarantee that it will be quite powdery
inside, even if the outside looks good.  Mine was used and stored in
the San Francisco, CA area, and so was in a moist salt-air
environment.  I think my tubing had more HOLES than it did TUBE!

Bob

At 12:11 4/2/2006, Spencer_Lists wrote:

>Greetings Steven,
>
>
>There was a lot of gray rubber tube used which would probably be
>hard as a rock now. If what you have is metallic and looks like
>lead, (scrape it gently in one place and see if it reveals shiny
>lead)it is lead and you are wise to leave it unless you know how to
>deal with lead tube. It is likely to be attached to the tracker bar
>in a way that makes it difficult to remove if you don't know how.
>You could make a real mess. As long as the tubing is not leaking, it
>is great stuff and will outlast anything. It is also quite poisonous
>where it has oxidized so not touching it is a good idea. If dust is
>flaking off it when you work on the action, you might want to seal
>it over with some clear finish that will keep the dust under control.

Steve,
 
You have there original lead tubing.
 
You don't need to worry about touching it, but don't breathe in any of the dust, and wash your hands.
 
I had it on my Welte (Standard-action) and have replaced it.  You will need to get adapters from Player Piano Company (or another supplier) to add nipples that you can connect to.  You will need to place the adapters in the old holes to the primary valves where the old tubing sat, and glue it in place with SHELLAC.
 
best regards,



Eliyahu Shahar



 
 

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---

Definitely lead, I scratched it a bit and it's shiny gray underneath.
(sorry if this posts twice, I thought I sent it but maybe not).

It appears to be coated with something--it's not particularly dusty or
powdery. Thanks for the safety tip--as I said, I don't handle the
tubes at all if I can help it.

--Steve

Greetings Steven,

There was a lot of gray rubber tube used which would probably be hard as a rock now. If what you have is metallic and looks like lead, (scrape it gently in one place and see if it reveals shiny lead)it is lead and you are wise to leave it unless you know how to deal with lead tube. It is likely to be attached to the tracker bar in a way that makes it difficult to remove if you don't know how. You could make a real mess. As long as the tubing is not leaking, it is great stuff and will outlast anything. It is also quite poisonous where it has oxidized so not touching it is a good idea. If dust is flaking off it when you work on the action, you might want to seal it over with some clear finish that will keep the dust under control. 

Sunday, April 2, 2006, 12:44:18 PM, you wrote:

-- 

Best regards,

Spencer_Lists Chase        mailto:lists@...

67550 Bell Springs Rd.

Garberville,  CA 95542    Postal service only.

Laytonville, CA 95454    UPS only.

Spencer@...

http://www.spencerserolls.com

http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm

(707) 984-8356

Greetings Steven,

There was a lot of gray rubber tube used which would probably be hard as a rock now. If what you have is metallic and looks like lead, (scrape it gently in one place and see if it reveals shiny lead)it is lead and you are wise to leave it unless you know how to deal with lead tube. It is likely to be attached to the tracker bar in a way that makes it difficult to remove if you don't know how. You could make a real mess. As long as the tubing is not leaking, it is great stuff and will outlast anything. It is also quite poisonous where it has oxidized so not touching it is a good idea. If dust is flaking off it when you work on the action, you might want to seal it over with some clear finish that will keep the dust under control. 

Sunday, April 2, 2006, 12:44:18 PM, you wrote:

-- 

Best regards,

Spencer_Lists Chase        mailto:lists@...

67550 Bell Springs Rd.

Garberville,  CA 95542    Postal service only.

Laytonville, CA 95454    UPS only.

Spencer@...

http://www.spencerserolls.com

http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm

(707) 984-8356

The tubes in my piano appear to be metal. Grayish, look pretty soft.
Whenever I have the player action out to work on it I steer way clear of
touching those tubes even with my fingers.  :)

That's one of my main reasons for experimenting with the non-invasive
tracker bar option. I totally agree--if they were rubber, I'd cut them in a
minute and be done with it.

--Steve


On 4/2/06 11:43 AM, "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@...> wrote:

> Hi Steve.  I'm in agreement with Mssrs Bullock and Chase.  The best
> e-actions I've seen are tubed into the system.  One point to
> remember: modern (any player after about 1915) players are usually
> run with rubber/neoprene tubing.  It is a "wear item", needing
> periodic replacement anyway.  If you cut it, and put in a "Y", you're
> still not changing anything permanent in the player!  Take out the
> "Y", replace the tube, and the piano is back to original!
>
> Regards,
> Bob
>
> At 06:13 PM 4/1/2006, sstrat44 wrote:
>> Hi--
>>
>> Can't say why my email address isn't working for you, because it's
>> correct. I receive list email just fine. Maybe my spam filter is
>> blocking it for some reason, sorry.
>>
>> I do appreciate what you're telling me. This whole thing is an
>> experiment. One of my goals was not to mess up the player action, and
>> so far I haven't.
>>
>> My player of course is not a reproducing piano, and for our purposes
>> it's great. I am most definitely in the "I got it to work" category.
>> :)  I'm sure it's doesn't hold a candle to a really fine player.
>>
>> I'll be tickled pink to get the tracker bar manifold to work, even if
>> I end up trashing it in the end.  :}  Will keep the list posted.
>>
>> --Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Steve.  I'm in agreement with Mssrs Bullock and Chase.  The best
e-actions I've seen are tubed into the system.  One point to
remember: modern (any player after about 1915) players are usually
run with rubber/neoprene tubing.  It is a "wear item", needing
periodic replacement anyway.  If you cut it, and put in a "Y", you're
still not changing anything permanent in the player!  Take out the
"Y", replace the tube, and the piano is back to original!

Regards,
Bob

At 06:13 PM 4/1/2006, sstrat44 wrote:
>Hi--
>
>Can't say why my email address isn't working for you, because it's
>correct. I receive list email just fine. Maybe my spam filter is
>blocking it for some reason, sorry.
>
>I do appreciate what you're telling me. This whole thing is an
>experiment. One of my goals was not to mess up the player action, and
>so far I haven't.
>
>My player of course is not a reproducing piano, and for our purposes
>it's great. I am most definitely in the "I got it to work" category.
>:)  I'm sure it's doesn't hold a candle to a really fine player.
>
>I'll be tickled pink to get the tracker bar manifold to work, even if
>I end up trashing it in the end.  :}  Will keep the list posted.
>
>--Steve

Greetings Steven,

My tracker bar unit has something like 6 to 8 inches of tubing between
the valves and the bar and it does work quite well. It would certainly
be good enough for anything but the most fussy installation. There is
probably more disturbance of the signal caused by the gasketed
interface than by the tubing.

One very important caution. Do not use thin walled rubber tubing
except where absolutely needed and keep it as short as possible.

If you can come up with a clever design that operates valves that are
directly on the manifold that would certainly be good but probably
quite noisy. I put the valves in a separate box which sits on top of
the spoolbox. It was too difficult to fit into the spoolbox of a grand
unless the valves were to be placed both above and below the bar and
it would have been very difficult to install any sound deadening
material. I have the whole valve set in a black acrylic enclosure
which is lined with 3/8" high density wool felt and it is acceptably
quiet. This is the reason for the rather long length of tubing.

I also have a comment about the fitting you used to connect to the
manifold. Without looking at them I can not tell the quality but
aquarium parts are generally not molded that carefully. Plain brass
tubing would be better as it has the largest ID to OD ratio and is
completely smooth inside if deburred. Any hobby supply sells the
stuff. You can also get rigid plastic tubing which not be as good but
easier to cut. I buy nipples by the thousand for a few cents each
which are cut to length and deburred but you have to buy at least
5000.

Saturday, April 1, 2006, 6:38:36 PM, you wrote:
> You know since I¹ve been chatting today with folks on this list, I¹ve been
> thinking of just that, eliminating the tubing all together. Back to the
> drawing board.

> --Steve


--
Best regards,
Spencer_Lists Chase        mailto:lists@...
67550 Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville,  CA 95542    Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454    UPS only.
Spencer@...
http://www.spencerserolls.com
http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm
(707) 984-8356

I would suggest that if you can get solenoids small enough to stack up in the space where the roll goes, or failing that, removing the take up spool and filling that space as well, you might have good luck using the trackerbar interface.  If you can keep the distance between tracker bar and solenoid to 3-4 inches or less, you may be able to use the system and get good enough repetition.

D.L. Bullock
www.pianoworld.us <http://www.pianoworld.us/>  
www.WellnessSecretsRevealed.com <http://www.wellnesssecretsrevealed.com/>  
  

 
 

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---

Greetings sstrat44,

I also took the tracker bar interface on as a challenge and it sure was one. I used it three times to demonstrate my system and have it in a box now. It was worth the effort to play a 9 foot Steinway Duo-Art. 

Feel free to ask any questions if you have strange behavior with the Tbar interface.

Saturday, April 1, 2006, 5:13:47 PM, you wrote:

-- 

Best regards,

Spencer_Lists Chase        mailto:lists@...

67550 Bell Springs Rd.

Garberville,  CA 95542    Postal service only.

Laytonville, CA 95454    UPS only.

Spencer@...

http://www.spencerserolls.com

http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm

(707) 984-8356

Hi--

Can't say why my email address isn't working for you, because it's
correct. I receive list email just fine. Maybe my spam filter is
blocking it for some reason, sorry.

I do appreciate what you're telling me. This whole thing is an
experiment. One of my goals was not to mess up the player action, and
so far I haven't.

My player of course is not a reproducing piano, and for our purposes
it's great. I am most definitely in the "I got it to work" category.
:)  I'm sure it's doesn't hold a candle to a really fine player.

I'll be tickled pink to get the tracker bar manifold to work, even if
I end up trashing it in the end.  :}  Will keep the list posted.

--Steve

--- In e-valves@yahoogroups.com, Spencer_Lists <lists@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings Steven,
>
> tried sending you e-mail at the address you have as a return on group
> mail. keep getting it returned. i can post the letter to the group but
> it is probably going to be too boring for most readers. please provide
> your correct address. sstrat@... is not deliverable.
>
> you definitely do not want 2 feet of tube after a tracker interface.
> if you do a tracker interface (not recommended if you want good
> performance) you need to have the valves as close to the bar as
> possible. at high vacuum levels there are fewer problems but at low
> levels you can really mess up the signals. unless you have a rare and
> valuable instrument with lead or copper tube from the tracker bar to
> the stack, there is no reason to interface to the tracker bar unless
> you want bad performance and all sorts of headaches getting it to not
> leak between ports etc. i have an Tbar interface that works pretty
> well but not as well as a tubed in system. it uses a very fine
> silicone sponge gasket on a manifold that was CNC drilled quite
> accurately. it has registration pins to keep it in alignment. if you
> insist on a Tbar interface, registration pins are very helpful.
>
> what most people (who have not learned to make them work perfectly) do
> not understand about players (especially reproducing pianos) is that
> getting them to work and getting them to work exceptionally are two
> entirely different matters. the same is true of e-valve systems. you
> can stick just about any valve on a long tube and get a note to play
> but to play even staccato notes, perfect soft trills etc. etc.
> requires every detail to be right. most reproducing pianos are right
> at the edge of being able to perform perfectly and can very easily be
> degraded by the slightest problem. there may be fewer problems with 88
> note pumpers but that is really because most people expect less of
> them. a good 88 note piano can be made to play beautifully in the feet
> of a good pianolist so if you are after this sort of performance you
> should be as demanding of your e-roll player installation as if you
> were putting it on a reproducing piano.
>
>
> Saturday, April 1, 2006, 1:34:34 PM, you wrote:
> > D.L.--
>
> > Whoa, I can see that I could have run into all of those problems
without
> > your advice. I was shooting for a tube run no longer than 2 feet,
but I¹m
> > now even pondering ways to eliminate the tubing entirely. Thanks
so much,
> > you¹ve saved me from some mistakes.
>
> > --Steve
>
>
> > On 4/1/06 3:20 PM, "D.L. Bullock" <d.l.bullock@...> wrote:
>
> >> Having dealt with electrifying players for use on theater organs,
I have some
> >> experience in what you are doing.
> >>
> >> In your solenoid there are three possible problems
> >> 1) the solenoid does not move enough air through it when opened
electrically.
> >> Solution may be enlarging hole, but see #2 first.
> >>
> >> 2) The channel through the valve is large enough to pass air,
but the
> >> pressure is too much to allow the solenoid to open the port.  You
could use a
> >> stronger solenoid but that is probably not needed.  Solution is
to make sure
> >> that the actual valve seat hole that is opened by the solenoid is
only 1/16"
> >> in diameter.  When techs used the large 1/4" hole Reisner
solenoid to open a
> >> port to the player tracker tubes, they got extremely slow
repetition if they
> >> opened at all.  These would play fine at some pressures but not
at higher
> >> pressures.  When we soldered up the 1/4" hole against the
armature and filed
> >> it flat, then drilled 1/16" hole they worked fast at any
pressure.  The 1/16"
> >> is as large as you need as this is the correct size hole to
balance the bleed
> >> found in the player stack.  You want a hole equal to the one that
the roll
> >> opens.
> >>
> >> 3) the tube to the tracker is too small or too long.  If the run
from tracker
> >> bar to solenoid is too long, then a fatter tube is needed.  You
are adding the
> >> length of the tracker bar tubing to what you are installing and I
cannot tell
> >> what size tubes you are using.  A 5/32 is normal for tracker bar
runs.  If the
> >> run form pouch to solenoid is more than 3-4 feet, you may need a
7/32" tubing.
> >> The closer to the tracker bar the better.
> >>
> >> D.L. Bullock
> >> www.pianoworld.us <http://www.pianoworld.us/>
> >> www.WellnessSecretsRevealed.com
<http://www.wellnesssecretsrevealed.com/>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: e-valves@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:e-valves@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
> >> Steven J. Stratford
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 11:58 AM
> >> To: e-valves@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: [e-valves] A different approach
> >>
> >> E-valve folks--
> >>
> >> Well, I¹ve been working on a slightly different approach to
midifying my
> >> player piano.
> >>
> >> I documented what I¹ve done so far. Please browse my page and see
what you
> >> think. Feedback, questions, and suggestions welcome. I¹m just
sort of feeling
> >> my way along with this, so I¹m open to any experience you can
share, ideas,
> >> whatever. TIA.
> >>
> >> http://playerpiano.internetyx.net
> >>
> >> --Steve Stratford
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >>
> >> *  Visit your group "e-valves
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/e-valves> " on
> >> the web.
> >> *
> >> *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >> *  e-valves-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >> <mailto:e-valves-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >> *
> >> *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
> >> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Spencer_Lists Chase        mailto:lists@...
> 67550 Bell Springs Rd.
> Garberville,  CA 95542    Postal service only.
> Laytonville, CA 95454    UPS only.
> Spencer@...
> http://www.spencerserolls.com
> http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm
> (707) 984-8356
>

Greetings Steven,

tried sending you e-mail at the address you have as a return on group
mail. keep getting it returned. i can post the letter to the group but
it is probably going to be too boring for most readers. please provide
your correct address. sstrat@... is not deliverable.

you definitely do not want 2 feet of tube after a tracker interface.
if you do a tracker interface (not recommended if you want good
performance) you need to have the valves as close to the bar as
possible. at high vacuum levels there are fewer problems but at low
levels you can really mess up the signals. unless you have a rare and
valuable instrument with lead or copper tube from the tracker bar to
the stack, there is no reason to interface to the tracker bar unless
you want bad performance and all sorts of headaches getting it to not
leak between ports etc. i have an Tbar interface that works pretty
well but not as well as a tubed in system. it uses a very fine
silicone sponge gasket on a manifold that was CNC drilled quite
accurately. it has registration pins to keep it in alignment. if you
insist on a Tbar interface, registration pins are very helpful.

what most people (who have not learned to make them work perfectly) do
not understand about players (especially reproducing pianos) is that
getting them to work and getting them to work exceptionally are two
entirely different matters. the same is true of e-valve systems. you
can stick just about any valve on a long tube and get a note to play
but to play even staccato notes, perfect soft trills etc. etc.
requires every detail to be right. most reproducing pianos are right
at the edge of being able to perform perfectly and can very easily be
degraded by the slightest problem. there may be fewer problems with 88
note pumpers but that is really because most people expect less of
them. a good 88 note piano can be made to play beautifully in the feet
of a good pianolist so if you are after this sort of performance you
should be as demanding of your e-roll player installation as if you
were putting it on a reproducing piano.


Saturday, April 1, 2006, 1:34:34 PM, you wrote:
> D.L.--

> Whoa, I can see that I could have run into all of those problems without
> your advice. I was shooting for a tube run no longer than 2 feet, but I¹m
> now even pondering ways to eliminate the tubing entirely. Thanks so much,
> you¹ve saved me from some mistakes.

> --Steve


> On 4/1/06 3:20 PM, "D.L. Bullock" <d.l.bullock@...> wrote:

>> Having dealt with electrifying players for use on theater organs, I have some
>> experience in what you are doing.
>>
>> In your solenoid there are three possible problems
>> 1) the solenoid does not move enough air through it when opened electrically.
>> Solution may be enlarging hole, but see #2 first.
>>
>> 2) The channel through the valve is large enough to pass air,  but the
>> pressure is too much to allow the solenoid to open the port.  You could use a
>> stronger solenoid but that is probably not needed.  Solution is to make sure
>> that the actual valve seat hole that is opened by the solenoid is only 1/16"
>> in diameter.  When techs used the large 1/4" hole Reisner solenoid to open a
>> port to the player tracker tubes, they got extremely slow repetition if they
>> opened at all.  These would play fine at some pressures but not at higher
>> pressures.  When we soldered up the 1/4" hole against the armature and filed
>> it flat, then drilled 1/16" hole they worked fast at any pressure.  The 1/16"
>> is as large as you need as this is the correct size hole to balance the bleed
>> found in the player stack.  You want a hole equal to the one that the roll
>> opens.
>>
>> 3) the tube to the tracker is too small or too long.  If the run from tracker
>> bar to solenoid is too long, then a fatter tube is needed.  You are adding
the
>> length of the tracker bar tubing to what you are installing and I cannot tell
>> what size tubes you are using.  A 5/32 is normal for tracker bar runs.  If
the
>> run form pouch to solenoid is more than 3-4 feet, you may need a 7/32"
tubing.
>> The closer to the tracker bar the better.
>>
>> D.L. Bullock
>> www.pianoworld.us <http://www.pianoworld.us/>
>> www.WellnessSecretsRevealed.com <http://www.wellnesssecretsrevealed.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: e-valves@yahoogroups.com [mailto:e-valves@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
>> Steven J. Stratford
>> Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 11:58 AM
>> To: e-valves@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [e-valves] A different approach
>>
>> E-valve folks--
>>
>> Well, I¹ve been working on a slightly different approach to midifying my
>> player piano.
>>
>> I documented what I¹ve done so far. Please browse my page and see what you
>> think. Feedback, questions, and suggestions welcome. I¹m just sort of feeling
>> my way along with this, so I¹m open to any experience you can share, ideas,
>> whatever. TIA.
>>
>> http://playerpiano.internetyx.net
>>
>> --Steve Stratford
>>
>>
>>
>>  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>
>> *  Visit your group "e-valves <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/e-valves> " on
>> the web.
>> *
>> *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> *  e-valves-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:e-valves-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>> *
>> *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>>
>>
>>
>>



--
Best regards,
Spencer_Lists Chase        mailto:lists@...
67550 Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville,  CA 95542    Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454    UPS only.
Spencer@...
http://www.spencerserolls.com
http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm
(707) 984-8356

Having dealt with electrifying players for use on theater organs, I have some experience in what you are doing.

In your solenoid there are three possible problems
1) the solenoid does not move enough air through it when opened electrically.  Solution may be enlarging hole, but see #2 first.

2) The channel through the valve is large enough to pass air,  but the pressure is too much to allow the solenoid to open the port.  You could use a stronger solenoid but that is probably not needed.  Solution is to make sure that the actual valve seat hole that is opened by the solenoid is only 1/16" in diameter.  When techs used the large 1/4" hole Reisner solenoid to open a port to the player tracker tubes, they got extremely slow repetition if they opened at all.  These would play fine at some pressures but not at higher pressures.  When we soldered up the 1/4" hole against the armature and filed it flat, then drilled 1/16" hole they worked fast at any pressure.  The 1/16" is as large as you need as this is the correct size hole to balance the bleed found in the player stack.  You want a hole equal to the one that the roll opens.

3) the tube to the tracker is too small or too long.  If the run from tracker bar to solenoid is too long, then a fatter tube is needed.  You are adding the length of the tracker bar tubing to what you are installing and I cannot tell what size tubes you are using.  A 5/32 is normal for tracker bar runs.  If the run form pouch to solenoid is more than 3-4 feet, you may need a 7/32" tubing.  The closer to the tracker bar the better.

D.L. Bullock
www.pianoworld.us <http://www.pianoworld.us/>  
www.WellnessSecretsRevealed.com <http://www.wellnesssecretsrevealed.com/>  
  

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: e-valves@yahoogroups.com [mailto:e-valves@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steven J. Stratford
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 11:58 AM
To: e-valves@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [e-valves] A different approach

E-valve folks--

Well, I’ve been working on a slightly different approach to midifying my player piano.

I documented what I’ve done so far. Please browse my page and see what you think. Feedback, questions, and suggestions welcome. I’m just sort of feeling my way along with this, so I’m open to any experience you can share, ideas, whatever. TIA.

http://playerpiano.internetyx.net

--Steve Stratford
 
 

---

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

• Visit your group "e-valves <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/e-valves> " on the web.
• To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
• e-valves-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:e-valves-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
• Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
  

 

---

Hi Steve.  Nice looking job, and some really good ideas there!  I
love to make "things" out of "junque", and epoxy and aluminum figure
big in most of my plans!
There are several good ideas for magnets which have been tried and
are successful.  I have a stash of old Wurlitzer pipe organ magnets
("lead-cap" for those in the know), and they convert very nicely to
vacuum magnets with the simple addition of a tube nipple soldered
into the vent.  I'll put up some photos of this when I have the
time.  Another fellow, who's name escapes me, sorry, made a really
nice valve using commercial coils, with an armature made up with it
looks like dowel and a felt/leather tip.  Folks also use small
electric pipe organ valves, such as Reisner or Wicks.  These use
little current, and can open a large port.  Sorry for the lack of
specifics, but I'm sure that others here can fill in the blanks.

Bob, who's dealing with "computor issues"...

At 09:58 4/1/2006, Steven J. Stratford wrote:
>E-valve folks--
>
>Well, I've been working on a slightly different approach to
>midifying my player piano.
>
>I documented what I've done so far. Please browse my page and see
>what you think. Feedback, questions, and suggestions welcome. I'm
>just sort of feeling my way along with this, so I'm open to any
>experience you can share, ideas, whatever. TIA.
>
><http://playerpiano.internetyx.net>http://playerpiano.internetyx.net
>
>--Steve Stratford

I've just uploaded some pics of a couple of e-valve
installations in a Mason & Hamlin Ampico B grand, and a
Wurlitzer 165 circus band organ.

To see the Mason & Hamlin e-valve installation by Bob Hunt,
click on:

http://members.shaw.ca/smythe/hunt.htm

To see the Wutlitzer 165 e-valve installation by Rick McDowell,
click on:

http://members.shaw.ca/smythe/mcdowell.htm

Both may also be accessed by clickable links off:

http://members.shaw.ca/smythe/e-valves.htm

Regards,

Terry
Moderator - e-valves Discussion Group

Terry Smythe                           204-832-3982 (land line)
55 Rowand Avenue                   204-981-3229 (cell)
Winnipeg, MB, Canada   R3J 2N6           smythe@...
Preserving a unique slice of our Musical Heritage
http://members.shaw.ca/smythe/rebirth.htm

 

Greetings e-valves,

I am very impressed with the E-Valve installation by Bob and Rick
shown in the recent pictures on Terry's web site. I am especially
interested in comparing note repetition timing with Bob's Mason and
Hamlin. I also have an Ampico B, just a Chickering but the mechanism
is the same. A customer of mine also has a B which he has been
optimizing to death in order to have it play perfectly from both
E-Rolls and paper. We have been comparing minimum valve response time
at various vacuum levels and have found that a number of factors
determine the minimum times including the amount of additional tubing
added, the ID of wye connectors and other factors. For the purpose of
testing I wrote a virtual keyboard program that has the ability to
play notes for timed durations and to repeat them with specified
durations and intervals. Although the program is running in windows
and does vary the note timing when other windows activities occur, the
program can be used for comparison testing if one is aware of this. I
can provide a DOS version for the truly obsessive. The program can be
found on the following page and is called MIDI virtual keyboard. I
would very much like to make some comparisons to my Ampico. Also, the
program is very useful for things like setting equal loudness of notes
on the B and for finding valve and action problems. Also useful for
testing the proper connection of tubes. You can hold notes on
indefinitely and crawl under the piano to trace things as well as use
the hold function to set expression levels for note testing. On the B,
you can set the sub intensity on as well. Please, if you have an
E-Roll player, lets compare notes.

http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html

BTW my new E-Roll Player system is going into production. I am still
getting bids on parts to try to make it affordable. The new system is
even better than the old. As soon as my internet connection is fixed
and I can upload large files, I'll post the new user manual to my web
site. There are many improvements to the system which make it operate
even better and make it virtually bullet proof. For example it has
overheat and short circuit protection as well as PWM pick and hold
circuitry. Valves can repeat at 30HZ or stay on indefinitely without
the actuator coils overheating. The system has full polyphony (can
play all notes at the same time) and operates off a single small 12
volt supply. It can even run on a battery.

--
Best regards,
Spencer_Lists Chase        mailto:lists@...
67550 Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville, CA 95542  Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454  UPS only.
Spencer@...
http://www.spencerserolls.com
http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm
(707) 984-8356

I've just uploaded some pics of a couple of e-valve
installations in a Mason & Hamlin Ampico B grand, and a
Wurlitzer 165 circus band organ.

To see the Mason & Hamlin e-valve installation by Bob Hunt,
click on:

http://members.shaw.ca/smythe/hunt.htm

To see the Wutlitzer 165 e-valve installation by Rick McDowell,
click on:

http://members.shaw.ca/smythe/mcdowell.htm

Both may also be accessed by clickable links off:

http://members.shaw.ca/smythe/e-valves.htm

Regards,

Terry
Moderator - e-valves Discussion Group

Terry Smythe                           204-832-3982 (land line)
55 Rowand Avenue                   204-981-3229 (cell)
Winnipeg, MB, Canada   R3J 2N6           smythe@...
Preserving a unique slice of our Musical Heritage
http://members.shaw.ca/smythe/rebirth.htm

------- Forwarded message follows -------

Date sent:       Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:08:58 +0000
From:            Jan Szatkowski <janszat@...>
Subject:         Interesting Vorsetzer pages
To:              smythe@...

Hi Terry    I,ve been doing a lot of internet searching on
pianos etc and came across these facinating pages from a
University in Belgium while looking at key operating forces.

They have effectivly built a whole midi automated orchestra!!
the pages ref  is

http://www.logosfoundation.org/instrum_gwr/playerpiano.html

or the player piano discussion, look at the base ref for the
discussion on the orchestra.

The interesting thing about this vorsetzer is that it is a full
88 note full velocity midi implementation which could easily be
converted to an inbourd unit on an existing player piano.   the
theory and the circuit board details are all published at the
site.  The code for the onboard micro proc is not published- i
dont know yet if its available. are any of the people you know
likely to be interested in discussions on this type of project,
is a bit off the beat for true vacuum enthusiasts but would be
another use for scanned rolls converted to midi. i'm just
looking at all posibilities again having more or less dismissed
solenoid operated systems, but their control system looks very
good and well thought through.

Cheers

Jan Szatkowski


------- End of forwarded message -------Terry Smythe                          
204-832-3982 (land line)
55 Rowand Avenue                   204-981-3229 (cell)
Winnipeg, MB, Canada   R3J 2N6           smythe@...
Preserving a unique slice of our Musical Heritage
http://members.shaw.ca/smythe/rebirth.htm

Just a brief note to advise that my Batch 21 of midi type 1
files emerging from roll scanning is now uploaded and available
at:

http://members.shaw.ca/smythe/batch21.htm

Or it may be downloaded directly from:

http://members.shaw.ca/paud122/batch21.ZIP

This batch contains 157 titles, bring the total to 3,825.

By chance, it represents the first batch that does not contain
any roll scans of my own. It is encouraging that others are
building roll scanners and contributing their midi files to this
ever growing library.  Special thanks to:

*  Larry Doe for contributing 100+ midi files from his own
scanning efforts.

*  Dave Kerr for contributing 50+ midi files from his own
scanning efforts.

*  Ed Gaida for contributing some midi files from scanning a
couple of late reproducing program piano rolls

Prior visitors will note a difference.    I have rebuilt my web
site, principally to rename my earlier uploads into a consistent
convention of tune title ahead of catalog number.     As a
consequence, the previous batch orientation had to be abandoned.
100% of all my files up to and including batch 20 are now
available in ZIP files segragated by roll type.     Those
inclined may want to download everything and simply delete
previous batches.

The complete offerings of all previous batches in new format may
be accessed and downloaded from:

http://members.shaw.ca/smythe/archive.htm

Previous visitors to this "archive.htm" page may need to
"refresh" a couple of times to force loading off the web site
instead of from cache.    Otherwise, links may not work.

As before, these files may be used for personal enjoyment only
to operate pneumatic player pianos equipped with e-valves, or
solenoid operated player pianos, or on digital pianos through a
MIDI-IN port from a nearby computer or by transferring to floppy
disks.   They will, of course, "play" on most any computer
capable of accepting midi type 1 files.

Enjoy!

Regards,

Terry

Terry Smythe                           204-832-3982 (land line)
55 Rowand Avenue                   204-981-3229 (cell)
Winnipeg, MB, Canada   R3J 2N6           smythe@...
Preserving a unique slice of our Musical Heritage
http://members.shaw.ca/smythe/rebirth.htm

Seven years ago,I midified my player piano with home made
e-valves using coils and "pallets" salvaged from old 48 Volt
surplus "european" relays.
The pallet closes a 4 mm diameter hole. For a stroke of 0.3
to 0.4 mm, this system works with 30 Volt. It's noisy and
centering is not easy.
Recently, I found small solenoids in a French surplus supplier.
see http://www.medelor.com/meca/135X1X2.pdf
At the bottom of the first page, they show a small model
(code : MINELAM)similar to the model BLP described by
Peter Coggins.
The 9 ohm coil (ohm, not "w") operates under 3 to 5 Volt DC
(330 mA under 3 V). The plunger is made of ferrite.
They may be quiet with a felt or leather washer between the
plunger and the box.
Cost is very low (0.5 euro each for 100 pieces).
They seem to be made by the German firm EBE (model TDS-04B),
under various voltages (and higher prices !).
It's better to use coils operating under higher voltage (and
lower current) : electronic command is easier.

jp jouandet

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> <p>Greetings Terry,</p>
> <p><br></p>
> <p>Before designing my e-roll system, I experimented with a lot of ready
> made solenoid and relay units. Many things worked but most were very
> noisy. My system is pretty quiet but still too noisy for my taste unless
> enclosed. The problem with solenoids is that the clapper slams right into
> the coil slug making a loud click. It is generally not possible to put a
> dampener in because the clapper swings instead of moving in a straight
> line. This also makes it difficult to get a good seal against a nipple or
> a hole in a wood or metal plate because the seal will compress over time
> and will not be free to settle. I did a lot of tests on this sort of thing
> because I wanted to avoid making the valve assembly myself. Since I wanted
> a system for reproducing pianos and since the Duo-Art can produce vacuum
> in excess of 60 inches, I tested at high vacuum levels and also at low
> levels to make sure there were not leaks.</p>
> <p><br></p>
> <p>Something to try that might solves all of these problems with readily
> available parts would be to use the solenoid coil (ideally one with a
> double return frame) with a metal disc similar to the design of the
> Aeolian Concertola primary valve. A loose clapper has a seal on one side
> and a felt dampening layer where it hits the solenoid core. One thing that
> was well proven with the PowerRoll is that a solenoid that has enough
> strength to pull against high vacuum with a large enough gap to provide
> dampening material, is likely to overheat when left on for long periods on
> full voltage. There are various ways around this but the best on is a pick
> and hold driver for the solenoids. I have a new design for my second
> generation E-Roll Player that I hope to produce soon. It is conceivable
> that I could make a model for use with loose coils if there is enough
> interest. If size is not of great concern, it could possibly make it a
> through hole design that could be hand assembled and supplied as a kit. My
> new design uses a custom controller designed by John Wale that is
> excellent in all respects. It is licensed to me for use with my E-Roll
> system but I could probably work out a deal to extend it to another
> application. If there is enough interest, I will investigate these
> possibilities. I can also do some testing with solenoids if I have the
> time. Another problem that I found with surplus solenoids is that you can
> not depend on a constant supply and that the new stock units are
> prohibitively expensive unless purchased in huge quantities.</p>
> <p><br></p>
> <p><br></p>
> <p><br></p>
> <p>Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 7:02:52 AM, you wrote:</p>
> <div><table border=0 cellpadding=1 cellspacing=2 style="border-color:
> #000000; border-style: solid;">
> <tr valign=top>
> <td width=14 style="background-color: #0000ff;">
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> </td>
> <td width=1127 style="background-color: #ffffff;">
> <p><span class=rvts7>All Electronics in Los Angeles area, has available a
> 24vdc&nbsp;</span></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>solenoid clapper, priced at $1.65 each. &nbsp;
> &nbsp;See:</span></p>
> <p><br></p>
> <p><a class=rvts8
> href="http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/SOL-">http://www.allelectr
> onics.com/cgi-bin/item/SOL-</a></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>92/search/24_VDC_CLAPPER_SOLENOID_.html</span></p>
> <p><br></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>Bill Klinger acquired a couple for me to test, and
> kindly built&nbsp;</span></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>a little test jig. &nbsp; &nbsp;By adding a small
> piece of leather or hard&nbsp;</span></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>felt, the moving clapper can be used as the source of
> atmosphere&nbsp;</span></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>under midi control. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;I've posted a
> pic in this in the photos&nbsp;</span></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>section of this discussion group</span></p>
> <p><br></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>In theory, it would do the job, but what we don't
> know is how&nbsp;</span></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>quiet a set of these will operate. &nbsp; Has anybody
> had experience&nbsp;</span></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>with this product? &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Is a 24vdc
> product a deterrent? &nbsp; &nbsp; Is a&nbsp;</span></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>12vdc product preferred?</span></p>
> <p><br></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>Regards,</span></p>
> <p><br></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>Terry</span></p>
> <p><br></p>
> <p><span class=rvts7>Terry Smythe &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
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> the/rebirth.htm</a></p>
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> <p><span class=rvts12>--&nbsp;</span></p>
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