earlyflute : Messages : 9714-9796 of 9951

#9714

From: Javier Gelati <jgelati@...>
Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 4:13 pm
Subject: Position of the cork in Hotteterre traverso

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¿Could anybody tell me which is the aproximately position of the cork (the distance between the cork and the center of the embouchure hole) in a Hotteterre (Graz, pitch 392)?
This will help me a lot. I´ve been trying for months and It´s still uncertain to me.
Thanks in advance,

Javier Gelati

tel: (011) 4864 6384

cel.: (011) 155 376 7738

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#9715

From: Alex Shaffer <alex.shaffer@...>
Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 4:45 pm
Subject: Re: Position of the cork in Hotteterre traverso

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The mark on the stick which Alain Weemaels supplies with his Graz 392 Hotteterre is about 19.5 mm from the end. I am also curious about how much others who play this instrument fiddle with cork position.

Alex Shaffer

****************************

6046 Westminster Place

Saint Louis MO 63112

*****************************

314.721-5377 (home)

314.852-5099 (cell)

On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Javier Gelati wrote:

Javier Gelati

tel: (011) 4864 6384

cel.: (011) 155 376 7738

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#9716

From: manuel morales <manoeltraverso@...>
Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 5:15 pm
Subject: Re: Position of the cork in Hotteterre traverso

manoeltraverso

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I never care about those marks. I try to have the octaves (firstable the ds) in tune and that's my correct cork's position on that flute.

regards.

manoel

De: Alex Shaffer <alex.shaffer@...>
Para: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: jueves, 9 de julio, 2009 18:45:36
Asunto: Re: [earlyflute] Position of the cork in Hotteterre traverso

Alex Shaffer

************ ********* *******

6046 Westminster Place

Saint Louis MO 63112

************ ********* ********

314.721-5377 (home)

314.852-5099 (cell)

On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Javier Gelati wrote:

Javier Gelati

tel: (011) 4864 6384

cel.: (011) 155 376 7738

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#9718

From: rod cameron <rcameron@...>
Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 5:22 pm
Subject: Re: Position of the cork in Hotteterre traverso

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Yes! That is a good short answer, but remember the middle d to low D is almost always a wide octave and so low D is flat and needs to be blown up a bit. I would simple say use the middle d to high d as the first cork placing test.

Rod

On Jul 9, 2009, at 10:15 AM, manuel morales wrote:

I never care about those marks. I try to have the octaves (firstable the ds) in tune and that's my correct cork's position on that flute.
regards.
manoel

De: Alex Shaffer <alex.shaffer@sbcglobal.net>
Para: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: jueves, 9 de julio, 2009 18:45:36
Asunto: Re: [earlyflute] Position of the cork in Hotteterre traverso

The mark on the stick which Alain Weemaels supplies with his Graz 392 Hotteterre is about 19.5 mm from the end. I am also curious about how much others who play this instrument fiddle with cork position.

Alex Shaffer
************ ********* *******
6046 Westminster Place
Saint Louis MO 63112
************ ********* ********
314.721-5377 (home)
314.852-5099 (cell)

On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Javier Gelati wrote:

¿Could anybody tell me which is the aproximately position of the cork (the distance between the cork and the center of the embouchure hole) in a Hotteterre (Graz, pitch 392)?
This will help me a lot. I´ve been trying for months and It´s still uncertain to me.
Thanks in advance,

Javier Gelati
tel: (011) 4864 6384
cel.: (011) 155 376 7738

¡Viví la mejor experiencia en la web!
Descargá gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8
http://downloads. yahoo.com/ ieak8/?l= ar

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#9717

From: rod cameron <rcameron@...>
Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 5:19 pm
Subject: Re: Position of the cork in Hotteterre traverso

rcameron@...

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Hello, Javier!

The quick answer to the "average" best place for the cork on the Graz original Hotteterre flute is 22mm from the centre of the mouth hole to the cork. However this can vary with each player.

You probably know this: The cork is movable as its position partly dictates the trueness of the octaves, when overblowing to the next register, and as a general rule, pushing the cork further away from the mouth hole tends to narrow the octaves, flattening the high register, and pushing it nearer sharpens the high register by widening the octaves. The player will want to adjust the cork to play true octaves, and your embouchure is an important part of where this setting is. The placement of the cork in any flute depends upon the whole playing instrument, that is, you are a part of the complete instrument, and the flute is another part. Your individual embouchure and air jet are individually unique, and a cork position that works for one player may not necessarily work for another player on the same flute. So that is why corks are adjustable, either by being pushing them with a stick, as is the case in the Graz Hotteterre, or by the later invention of the screw cap. It would surprise you how many experienced players never touch the cork, and put up with a poor setting for years, only to discover that a small change improves their playing in seconds. Of course, it helps to have a good flute, as some flutes will never allow good octaves, so bore shape is super important. Remember also that there is no such thing as a perfect baroque flute, only better or worse. I often quote Philippe Alain Dupré, holding up an excellent flute of his own making in a master class and saying, "This flute is not in tune! Your job is to play it in tune." A good flute will allow you this flexibility, and a poor one will resist all attempts. So you have to set the cork to get as good octaves as the flute is capable of, and then use your playing skills to pull everything into line.

With all of that said, turning back to the Graz Hotteterre original, the top tenon of the middle joint has been squeezed in, due to the thread wrappings over the centuries, and this squeeze is near the nodal point for the A octaves, so these are very narrow, and out of tune. I am going to presume that your "copy" has corrected this 'ravage of time'. The Graz, slavishly copied, would have many problems, yet it is still an important flute to be studied. I would put the playing pitch of the original, for my lip, at about A398.

best wishes!

Rod

¿Could anybody tell me which is the aproximately position of the cork (the distance between the cork and the center of the embouchure hole) in a Hotteterre (Graz, pitch 392)?
This will help me a lot. I´ve been trying for months and It´s still uncertain to me.
Thanks in advance,

Javier Gelati
tel: (011) 4864 6384
cel.: (011) 155 376 7738

¡Viví la mejor experiencia en la web!
Descargá gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8
http://downloads.yahoo.com/ieak8/?l=ar

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#9719

From: Colin Saint-Martin <traversomon@...>
Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:45 am
Subject: Re : Position of the cork in Hotteterre traverso

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Dear Javier,
Rod has, as always, provided very good, reliable and well explained information regarding the cork position and other octave difficulties. If I may add one further detail that has been of help to me which is to get the 'G' octaves in-tune. On many pre-1750 traversos, of which your Hotteterre is an excellent example, if you set the cork so that the 'D' octaves are completely comfortable, the 'G' octaves will almost always be very wide. On later, narrower-bored 18th century flutes like the CA Grenser, one often needs to tune the 'D' octaves slightly on the high-side so that the high 'G' is not too flat. This being said, if you have no need to play very often in the 3rd octave, then I would just set the cork so that the 'D' octaves are perfectly comfortable for you. On a personal note, I've used my own Cameron-Hotteterre to play operas of Rameau and Gluck which generally have very high tessituras and it worked beautifully and easily. I hope this is of some help and doesn't just make things more confusing!
Best,
Colin

De : Javier Gelati <jgelati@...>
À : Early Flute <earlyflute@yahoogroups.com>; Flutemakers Group <flutemakers@yahoogroups.com>
Envoyé le : Jeudi, 9 Juillet 2009, 12h13mn 43s
Objet : [earlyflute] Position of the cork in Hotteterre traverso

Javier Gelati

tel: (011) 4864 6384

cel.: (011) 155 376 7738

¡Viví la mejor experiencia en la web!
Descargá gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8
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#9720

From: rod cameron <rcameron@...>
Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:32 am
Subject: Re: Re : Position of the cork in Hotteterre traverso

rcameron@...

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Excellent post, Colin,

I am glad you talked about not worrying about the upper register, unless you are to be playing up there. Getting your D octaves in good relationship is often all you need for many musical pieces.

Best wishes!

Rod

On Jul 9, 2009, at 5:45 PM, Colin Saint-Martin wrote:

Dear Javier,
Rod has, as always, provided very good, reliable and well explained information regarding the cork position and other octave difficulties. If I may add one further detail that has been of help to me which is to get the 'G' octaves in-tune. On many pre-1750 traversos, of which your Hotteterre is an excellent example, if you set the cork so that the 'D' octaves are completely comfortable, the 'G' octaves will almost always be very wide. On later, narrower-bored 18th century flutes like the CA Grenser, one often needs to tune the 'D' octaves slightly on the high-side so that the high 'G' is not too flat. This being said, if you have no need to play very often in the 3rd octave, then I would just set the cork so that the 'D' octaves are perfectly comfortable for you. On a personal note, I've used my own Cameron-Hotteterre to play operas of Rameau and Gluck which generally have very high tessituras and it worked beautifully and easily. I hope this is of some help and doesn't just make things more confusing!
Best,
Colin

De : Javier Gelati <jgelati@yahoo.com.ar>
À : Early Flute <earlyflute@yahoogroups.com>; Flutemakers Group <flutemakers@yahoogroups.com>
Envoyé le : Jeudi, 9 Juillet 2009, 12h13mn 43s
Objet : [earlyflute] Position of the cork in Hotteterre traverso

¿Could anybody tell me which is the aproximately position of the cork (the distance between the cork and the center of the embouchure hole) in a Hotteterre (Graz, pitch 392)?
This will help me a lot. I´ve been trying for months and It´s still uncertain to me.
Thanks in advance,

Javier Gelati
tel: (011) 4864 6384
cel.: (011) 155 376 7738

¡Viví la mejor experiencia en la web!
Descargá gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8
http://downloads. yahoo.com/ ieak8/?l= ar

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#9722

From: rod cameron <rcameron@...>
Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:32 pm
Subject: Re: Re : Position of the cork in Hotteterre traverso

rcameron@...

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Hello!

Philippe posted this to earlyflute, but somehow it did not get through, so he sent a copy to me and here it is:

Hi Rod and all,

Another problem occurs with Hotteterre flutes and d tuning for placing the cork.

Hotteterre in his fingering chart doesn't give high d with -23---K, but only with -23456 or -234-6

Does it mean he was not expecting the first fingering for high d -23---K that we commonly use to be in tune?

I don't know how it works on the Graz flute, but I know it doesn't work on many 3-piece flutes, where the 4th harmonics, Renaissance-like fingering is much more in tune;

keep this in mind when you try to place cork with d octaves;

And ask your maker whether he has changed the bore to allow this high d fingering -23---K to be in tune;

best

Philippe

I do notice that many players have an expectation that the older three piece flutes should respond to the later high d with -23---K . Some flutes do, but not all, so I agree with Philippe we should be testing the old fingering: -23456 or -234-6 in our modern 'copies' first to see if the overall intonation works better?

Rod

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#9733

From: Jean-Francois Beaudin <jfbeaudin@...>
Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 8:43 pm
Subject: Address change

jfbeaudin

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Just to say that I moved last June. Just 12 km away from the wild country to the village. Closer to the services and also having a much nicer workshop here: (26X15) feet. I am starting only now the isolation job.
Hope rain will stop for having some summer here up north.
See below my new street and number for Canada and my new mail Box for inner USA.

Jean-François

Jean-François Beaudin

75 Principale, Frelighsburg,
Quebec, Canada. J0J 1C0

Tel/Fax : (450) 298-5161
jfbeaudin@...
www.flute-beaudin.com

For inner USA
P.O.Box 1189
Enosburg Falls
Vermont. 05450

Avec Windows Live, vous gardez le contact avec tous vos amis au même endroit.

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#9735

From: rod cameron <rcameron@...>
Date: Thu Aug 6, 2009 8:50 pm
Subject: Re: Address change

rcameron@...

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Good luck with your move, Jean_François!

best

Rod

On Aug 6, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Jean-Francois Beaudin wrote:

Just to say that I moved last June. Just 12 km away from the wild country to the village. Closer to the services and also having a much nicer workshop here: (26X15) feet. I am starting only now the isolation job.
Hope rain will stop for having some summer here up north.
See below my new street and number for Canada and my new mail Box for inner USA.

Jean-François

Jean-François Beaudin

75 Principale, Frelighsburg,
Quebec, Canada. J0J 1C0

Tel/Fax : (450) 298-5161
jfbeaudin@hotmail.com
www.flute-beaudin.com

For inner USA
P.O.Box 1189
Enosburg Falls
Vermont. 05450

Avec Windows Live, vous gardez le contact avec tous vos amis au même endroit.

Roderick Cameron

rcameron@...

PO Box 438

10580 Williams Street

Mendocino,

CA 95460, USA

studio 707 937 0412

Home 707 937 9921

cell: 707 813 7593

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#9760

From: Jean-Francois Beaudin <jfbeaudin@...>
Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:29 pm
Subject: Monzani on Ebay

jfbeaudin

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Just have a look, Ebay item 230364750372.

Jean-François

Nous sommes vos photos. Partagez-nous dès maintenant avec Windows Live Photos.

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#9761

From: rod cameron <rcameron@...>
Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:48 pm
Subject: Re: Monzani on Ebay

rcameron@...

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Hello, Jean-François!

Thank you for showing us this flute sale reference!

You and I, and others here, will note this Monzani's similarity with the flutes of John Rose, of Edinburgh, when he worked alone, before his move to London and association with Rudal. Who was working in the style of whom. would be interesting to have comment on. Do I remember Terry commenting something on this? The flute offered on eBay by Monzani does not have the 'crisp' engineering seen in his later flutes, and so is even closer looking to the John Rose housed in the Edinburgh Reid Collection particularly in key design. As an aside, I would say the seller is optimistic.

best wishes!

Rod

On Aug 29, 2009, at 10:29 AM, Jean-Francois Beaudin wrote:

Ebay item 230364750372.

Roderick Cameron

rcameron@...

PO Box 438

10580 Williams Street

Mendocino,

CA 95460, USA

studio 707 937 0412

Home 707 937 9921

cell: 707 813 7593

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#9763

From: "Terry McGee" <terry@...>
Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:30 pm
Subject: Re: Monzani on Ebay

mcgeeflutes

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On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 03:48:17 +1000, rod cameron <rcameron@...> wrote:



> Hello, Jean-François!

>

> Thank you for showing us this flute sale reference!

>

> You and I, and others here, will note this Monzani's similarity with

> the flutes of John Rose, of Edinburgh, when he worked alone, before

> his move to London and association with Rudal. Who was working in the

> style of whom. would be interesting to have comment on. Do I remember

> Terry commenting something on this?



Indeed Rod, I have a bit on the topic at:



http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/RoseB4Rudall.htm



> The flute offered on eBay by

> Monzani does not have the 'crisp' engineering seen in his later

> flutes, and so is even closer looking to the John Rose housed in the

> Edinburgh Reid Collection particularly in key design. As an aside, I

> would say the seller is optimistic.



I understand this seller has advertised a number of flutes recently at

$10,000.  It's been suggested elsewhere that he doesn't really expect to

sell the instrument via Ebay, but is using Ebay as free advertising.  If

so, I guess we would expect it to dissappear suddenly.



Terry

--

Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs

3 Bunderra Court (off Bunderra Circuit), Malua Bay, NSW, 2536, Australia

Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837; Fax +61 (0)2 4471 2578

Email: terry@...; Web:  http://www.mcgee-flutes.com

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#9765

From: rod cameron <rcameron@...>
Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:44 pm
Subject: Re: Monzani on Ebay

rcameron@...

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Thank you, Terry!



Your writing is good, and the photography is clear. Glad you are

getting this information out there, for the common good.



Best wishes!



Rod



On Aug 29, 2009, at 2:30 PM, Terry McGee wrote:



> On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 03:48:17 +1000, rod cameron <rcameron@...>

> wrote:

>

>> Hello, Jean-François!

>>

>> Thank you for showing us this flute sale reference!

>>

>> You and I, and others here, will note this Monzani's similarity with

>> the flutes of John Rose, of Edinburgh, when he worked alone, before

>> his move to London and association with Rudal. Who was working in the

>> style of whom. would be interesting to have comment on. Do I remember

>> Terry commenting something on this?

>

> Indeed Rod, I have a bit on the topic at:

>

> http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/RoseB4Rudall.htm

>

>> The flute offered on eBay by

>> Monzani does not have the 'crisp' engineering seen in his later

>> flutes, and so is even closer looking to the John Rose housed in the

>> Edinburgh Reid Collection particularly in key design. As an aside, I

>> would say the seller is optimistic.

>

> I understand this seller has advertised a number of flutes recently at

> $10,000.  It's been suggested elsewhere that he doesn't really

> expect to

> sell the instrument via Ebay, but is using Ebay as free

> advertising.  If

> so, I guess we would expect it to dissappear suddenly.

>

> Terry

> --

> Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs

> 3 Bunderra Court (off Bunderra Circuit), Malua Bay, NSW, 2536,

> Australia

> Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837; Fax +61 (0)2 4471 2578

> Email: terry@...; Web:  http://www.mcgee-flutes.com

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>



Rod Cameron

PO Box 438, 10580 William Street

Mendocino, CA 95460, USA

Mobile Phone: 707 813 759

Home: 707 937 9921

Studio ( no messages) 707 937 0412

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#9766

From: "Terry McGee" <terry@...>
Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:53 pm
Subject: Re: Monzani on Ebay

mcgeeflutes

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On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 07:44:05 +1000, rod cameron <rcameron@...> wrote:



> Thank you, Terry!

>

> Your writing is good, and the photography is clear. Glad you are

> getting this information out there, for the common good.



Thanks Rod.



It would be nice to have more time.  Official retirement age comes up in

four years.  Maybe then!



(I joke to the family about taking up golf and lawn bowls, but no-one

takes me seriously.)



Terry



>

> Best wishes!

>

> Rod

>

> On Aug 29, 2009, at 2:30 PM, Terry McGee wrote:

>

>> On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 03:48:17 +1000, rod cameron <rcameron@...>

>> wrote:

>>

>>> Hello, Jean-François!

>>>

>>> Thank you for showing us this flute sale reference!

>>>

>>> You and I, and others here, will note this Monzani's similarity with

>>> the flutes of John Rose, of Edinburgh, when he worked alone, before

>>> his move to London and association with Rudal. Who was working in the

>>> style of whom. would be interesting to have comment on. Do I remember

>>> Terry commenting something on this?

>>

>> Indeed Rod, I have a bit on the topic at:

>>

>> http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/RoseB4Rudall.htm

>>

>>> The flute offered on eBay by

>>> Monzani does not have the 'crisp' engineering seen in his later

>>> flutes, and so is even closer looking to the John Rose housed in the

>>> Edinburgh Reid Collection particularly in key design. As an aside, I

>>> would say the seller is optimistic.

>>

>> I understand this seller has advertised a number of flutes recently at

>> $10,000.  It's been suggested elsewhere that he doesn't really

>> expect to

>> sell the instrument via Ebay, but is using Ebay as free

>> advertising.  If

>> so, I guess we would expect it to dissappear suddenly.

>>

>> Terry

>> --

>> Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs

>> 3 Bunderra Court (off Bunderra Circuit), Malua Bay, NSW, 2536,

>> Australia

>> Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837; Fax +61 (0)2 4471 2578

>> Email: terry@...; Web:  http://www.mcgee-flutes.com

>>

>>

>> ------------------------------------

>>

>> Yahoo! Groups Links

>>

>>

>>

>

> Rod Cameron

> PO Box 438, 10580 William Street

> Mendocino, CA 95460, USA

> Mobile Phone: 707 813 759

> Home: 707 937 9921

> Studio ( no messages) 707 937 0412

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>







--

Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs

3 Bunderra Court (off Bunderra Circuit), Malua Bay, NSW, 2536, Australia

Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837; Fax +61 (0)2 4471 2578

Email: terry@...; Web:  http://www.mcgee-flutes.com

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#9762

From: "Rick Wilson" <rmw@...>
Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:56 pm
Subject: Re: Monzani on Ebay

rickoldflutes

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Jean-Francois Beaudin wrote:

Subject: [earlyflute] Monzani on Ebay



> Just have a look, Ebay item 230364750372.



The serial number -- as well as the appearance -- would

date this flute at c.1816, not 1840 as the seller claims.

Looks nice, but the price ($10000) is very high!



In his flute method (2nd edition) of 1813, Monzani

describes a nine-key flute, and the illutration shows an

instrument with a perfectly straight profile (no socket bulges)

like Rudall & Rose flutes.  But many surviving Monzani flutes

c.1815 were still made with six or seven keys, and

socket bulges.



--Rick Wilson

  www.oldflutes.com

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#9764

From: "Terry McGee" <terry@...>
Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:37 pm
Subject: Re: Monzani on Ebay

mcgeeflutes

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On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 04:56:35 +1000, Rick Wilson <rmw@...> wrote:



> Jean-Francois Beaudin wrote:

> Subject: [earlyflute] Monzani on Ebay

>

>> Just have a look, Ebay item 230364750372.

>

> The serial number -- as well as the appearance -- would

> date this flute at c.1816, not 1840 as the seller claims.

> Looks nice, but the price ($10000) is very high!

>

> In his flute method (2nd edition) of 1813, Monzani

> describes a nine-key flute, and the illutration shows an

> instrument with a perfectly straight profile (no socket bulges)

> like Rudall & Rose flutes.  But many surviving Monzani flutes

> c.1815 were still made with six or seven keys, and

> socket bulges.



I guess we are seeing that change in flute style from the larger bored

18th c flutes to the narrow bored 19th c flutes but in the work of one

maker.  I've certainly seen Clementi flutes that fall into both

categories.  Was Potter responsible for introducing the new narrow bore?



Terry

--

Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs

3 Bunderra Court (off Bunderra Circuit), Malua Bay, NSW, 2536, Australia

Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837; Fax +61 (0)2 4471 2578

Email: terry@...; Web:  http://www.mcgee-flutes.com

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#9796

From: Jean-Francois Beaudin <jfbeaudin@...>
Date: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:00 am
Subject: CD, Beaudin-Flute

jfbeaudin

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Hello all members.

Just to say that I got this summer from Mindy Rosenfelt, one of the most recent CD of the Baltimore Consort on renaissance Spanish music. This is an opportunity to ear, in many pieces, Mindy playing my modern traverso at 392Hz. At 440Hz it is seen as flute in C naturally.
I give here the link to Amazon shop online. http://www.amazon.com/Adio-Espa%C3%B1a-Romances-Villancicos-Improvisations/dp/B001U1LA0C/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1252937394&sr=1-2

Hope you'll enjoy.

J.F.B.

Jean-François Beaudin

75 Principale, Frelighsburg,
Quebec, Canada. J0J 1C0

Tel/Fax : (450) 298-5161
jfbeaudin@...
www.flute-beaudin.com

For inner USA
P.O.Box 1189
Enosburg Falls
Vermont. 05450

Nouveau : connexion à Hotmail par MSN!

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