American Masters explores fifty years of folk legend and human rights activist
Joan Baez in Joan Baez: How Sweet the Sound, airing October 14 on PBS.

You can also buy it on DVD:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LIKM9I/tgfs

Hi, John:

If you ask a thousand music lovers the question "what is folk music" you'd get a
thousand different answers ... all of them right because folk music trhoughout
the ages is the music sung by folks.  In other words, only Billboard and egghead
musicologists have such definitons.  There wasn't just one Folk Revival (such as
that which occurred in the late 50's and early 60's) but there have been dozens,
perhaps more than a hundred for as long as mucic has existed and has been
telling stories, etc.

The Folkies consider themselves to be "purists" and claim ownership of all folk
music.  But there is no agreement among them, and most of the are just a little
bit opinionated, and hypercritical.  A lot of Folkies like music that would
never be commercially successful, and if you like the sound of "jugs, washtubs
and harmonicas" you'll fit right in with the most vocal of this group.

They hate the "sell-outs" who popularized folk music during the last revival
because they were commercially successful "first as crossover artists" and later
as mainstream artists.  i.e. Joan Baez, PP&M, The Kingston Trio, and teh like. 
Most of the artists that were able to "chart" have survived more than 50 years
and will still be performing until they die, or no longer have the health to
perform.

Is their success a triumph for folk music or a defeat?  Ask most folkies who
will tell you the Folk Revival ended when Bob Dylan came to the stage and played
an electric guitar at the Newport Jazz Festival, but that's not true.  What
ended the Revival was the British Invasion led by the Beatles and others.  Then,
came disco and polyester suits.  With music like almost everything in society,
"when the herd moves on" it's unstoppable.  And, with folk music since the
mid-60's the herd has moved on.

On Live365.com which has more than 6,000 independent radio stations there are
only 174 Folk stations, excpt for the top 10 stations most of the others have
fewer than 2 or 3 isteners, and even the station owners seldom listen to their
own stations.  Only two PBS radio statons that are simulcasting have any real
success, but the Live365.com listener caps prevent most listeners from
listening, and these two stations have subscription-based links and over-the-air
radio statons where most people either pay to listen online, or have to live
near enough to the station to liste.

To answer your question about whether "folk music" made it into the mainstraam,
it depends upon how you define folk music.  Arlo Guthrie, whos Dad was Woody,
knows more about 20th Century folk music than most would tell you that
popularity and financial success doesn't mean that an artist has become a
sell-out ... it just means that the artist has found a way to survive in the
very competitive marketplace of music.  If you live in the mountains and are
isolated from the rest of society, you might actually want to listen to
hillbilly artists playing crude instruments who have never had any music
training.

But, if folk music serves any purpose, it needs to be listend to.  When the top
folk artists were protesting the Viet Nam War, struggling for Civil Rights to
end racial injustice and speaking out for the poor and unedcated in America ...
those issues needed a mass audience to hear the message.  Whether the artists
were backed up by orchestras or using acoustical instruments ... the message in
those songs burned across the nation and all over the world.  Once the money
moved away from folk music to other genres, the message had a difficult time
finding an audience.  But, by that point, public opinion about the issues had
changed the culture and seared the nation's conscience.  It took a Revolution to
stop a lot of the injustice that existed for far too long.  It's been 50 years,
and it's high-time for another revolution, we need it.

Loran

Al,

First, thanks for getting back to me.  My thoughts about who and what is included on the compilations pretty much follows yours.

It is interesting that folk music was one of the musics that we all heard on the radio and television in the '60s.  I think there was a lot more swapping of ideas then than now, even if the results were sometimes bizarre (Lawrence Welk's doing rock and roll--or folk songs, for that matter). (Confession: Lawrence Welk was about as classy as music got in my house. My parents' entire collection of music probably took up no more than 16 inches of shelf space.)

The whole issue of what is or isn't folk music is an interesting debate.  I taught high school for 30+ years, and have three kids of my own, and I know their cultural background is very different from mine.  As a result, the folk tradition has been effectively erased for at least two or three generations of American kids, especially those growing up in urban and suburban communities.  For example, folk songs were part of music appreciation in my grade school.  Most schools don't even make music (or art) appreciation available.  Then too, if kids are exposed to folk music, it's in the context of toddler albums (Barney may have done some good), but I think ultimately that only serves to trivialize and stigmatize both music and the musician. Garcia and Grisman's "Not for Children Only" is a fine antidote for the infantilization of the folk tradition.

Another thing that I witnessed as a teacher is that kids didn't want to do something unless they could excel at it, and I think their parents and teachers encouraged that attitude. If someone knows a half dozen guitar chords, s/he can accompany scores of folk songs.  But kids want to be shred guitar monsters.  When a student told me s/he used to play guitar, but stopped becauses/he wasn't very good, I'd say "I play guitar because I enjoy it, not because I'm good at it."  I wanted to say, "If people only did things they were good at, there wouldn't be many babies."  Can't say that in high schools--or colleges, for that matter. But the beauty of the simplicity of folk music is gone.  Singer/songwriters by and large bore me, because even though they borrow from the folk tradition, their songs are too personal and intimate (kind word), and I think that is self-indulgent.

So much for the digression: to me, folk music not only suggests the traditional, but also the slightly naive.  Folk music is direct, unadorned (I was going to say simple, but the connotation may offend), and rooted in honest emotion.  PPM and the Kingston Trio flirted with not being folk music, and Dylan would take a vacation, even for a song or an album, but I think by-and-large they stayed true believers.

What do you think of country and western music as an off-shoot of folk?  I think many of the earlier performers (pre-'60s or '70s) really were close to the folk tradition.  Back in the late '70s and '80s I listened to a lot of country, but gradually lost interest.  Then, about a year ago through my daughter, I began listening again.  Can't say I enjoyed most of it.  It sounded too over-produced, too much like formulaic rock and pop.  The MTV effect had occurred, too, so most of the artists were too young and too pretty (of course, at my age, most everyone is becoming too young).

Well, I've rambled on way too long (Ramble On? That would make a good song title ;-)  ).

I'd sure enjoy from hearing from folks.

Uncle John

I haven't visited this site since I joined this group, and yours are the
first posting I've got from it.

I don't think this group's "criteria" much more than one person's personal
favorites, put into a list form. Which is OK to get the discussions started.

The page says, "I have not included the more commercial, clean-cut groups"
and then lists Peter Paul and Mary, Chad Mitchell Trio and The Journeymen as
eseential or honorable mention. It states they have "not emphasized those
who got their start in a previous folk music revival", yet lists The
Tarriers, who certainly had records out in the states long before Jack
Elliot, who was left off because he was too early...he also refers to
"national prominence" and lists some performers that have never had any real
national prominence...

I joined thinking there may be lively discussions along those lines but
haven't heard anything from it until your posts.

So to answer the question, the compilations were put together by people with
different opinions than the moderator of this Yahoo group.

Some compilations are put together by people who throw together whatever
songs they can get reproduction rights to as cheap as possible on some vague
"theme". Others are put out by record companies, so natchurally only have
their artists on them.

Since I bought recordingss by almost all of the performers from that list
when they came out I really haven't looked very carefully at what
compilations are out there. All that being said, it seems crazy that Buffy
St. Marie, Phil Ochs, Odetta, Richie Havens, and Peter, Paul, and Mary would
all be left off of a compilation in favor of Sonny and Cher and Trini Lopez,
unless the purpose of the collection was to demonstrate how pervasive the
folk scare penetrated into more mainstream music, and not to showcase the
actual folkie performers.

There may be some Amazon "favorites" lists that people have put together of
their favorites from that era.


on 3/2/09 8:31 PM, joceb2005@... at joceb2005@... wrote:

> In the course of trying to help my daughter with her project, I've
> printed out the selections available on so-called "Greatest Folk
> Songs" collections.  Most of the artists listed on the Folk Scare home
> page are absent from the collections.
>
> The most glaring omissions include Buffy St. Marie, Phil Ochs, Odetta,
> Richie Havens, and Peter, Paul, and Mary.  A lot of the artists who
> are included I would not consider folk artists, although their
> material comes from the folk tradition.
>
> So I'm wondering: are the omissions the result of not getting
> permission to use the material OR are the omissions the result of
> wanting to market more main-stream selections?
>
> (My research strategy consisted of going to Amazon and looking at what
> was included on a couple of compilations).
>
> (And why aren't more people posting?!)
>
> ------------------------------------

In the course of trying to help my daughter with her project, I've
printed out the selections available on so-called "Greatest Folk
Songs" collections.  Most of the artists listed on the Folk Scare home
page are absent from the collections.

The most glaring omissions include Buffy St. Marie, Phil Ochs, Odetta,
Richie Havens, and Peter, Paul, and Mary.  A lot of the artists who
are included I would not consider folk artists, although their
material comes from the folk tradition.

So I'm wondering: are the omissions the result of not getting
permission to use the material OR are the omissions the result of
wanting to market more main-stream selections?

(My research strategy consisted of going to Amazon and looking at what
was included on a couple of compilations).

(And why aren't more people posting?!)

I have been wondering about a singer who was frequently singing at
clubs in the Southern Califonia beach area.  He also collected
Hudsons.  (Cars) Does anyone have any info?

rockford92584

I have been asking people on St. Vincent about E. T. Joshua after a singer asked
me. After Eric
von Schmidt died more information surfaced on the internet. I put together what
I had on my
SVG blog [http://svgb.karleklund.net] with a cross-reference to
[http://folksongstuff.blogspot.com/]

Some questions remain. What was Eric doing on St. Vincent in 1962?  Where did he
get the
idea that E. T. Joshua had a yacht when he was bicycling or walking to work as
head of
government? How come Eric didn't hear that the West Indian Federation was
falling apart
when Joshua's party was the only small island party trying to hold it together
as what seemed
like the best route away from colonialism?

And generally, how could Eric have been so right about Sonny Child, so that even
his ex-wife
and other people agree; and so off base about Joshua?

Admittedly Caribbean politics is pretty strange even compared to American
politics, but
still ...

Here's a posting from the rec.music.folk usenet group, with a link to
his obituary:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.folk/browse_thread/thread/66c88
3a6aecae97f

He will be missed:

Bob B.

Welcome Loran.  I did send notices out to everyone left on the old
forum, but most had already unsubscribed because of the invasion of the
spammers.

Keep the faith!

Bob B.

--- In folkscare@yahoogroups.com, "Loran" <loran2000@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Bob, for adding me.  We need to get the rest of the people
from
> the old forum enrolled.  Is there anyway you could use the log-ins
and
> usernames from the old website to "auto enroll" the folks from the
> other website?  I do very much like using google for discussion
forums.
>

Thanks, Bob, for adding me.  We need to get the rest of the people from
the old forum enrolled.  Is there anyway you could use the log-ins and
usernames from the old website to "auto enroll" the folks from the
other website?  I do very much like using google for discussion forums.