A leading Psychoacoustician wrote



"I had a look at "Harmonic Entropy" and was immediately put off by the

idea that intervals are frequency ratios (which ratio? most intervals

have two...) and Euler's idea of harmony, that in my view has no

physiological basis"



Most definitions of consonance do not require exact integer tunings,

only approximations.



-Kelly

At 08:51 AM 12/29/2007, you wrote:

>A leading Psychoacoustician wrote

>

>"I had a look at "Harmonic Entropy" and was immediately put off by the

>idea that intervals are frequency ratios (which ratio? most intervals

>have two...) and Euler's idea of harmony, that in my view has no

>physiological basis"

>

>Most definitions of consonance do not require exact integer tunings,

>only approximations.

>

>-Kelly



Hi Kelly,



Who said this?  It doesn't seem like they understand harmonic

entropy very well.



-Carl

---

To: harmonic_entropy@yahoogroups.com
From: carl@...
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:59:27 -0800
Subject: Re: [harmonic_entropy] interval as pitch space, not frequency

At 08:51 AM 12/29/2007, you wrote:
>A leading Psychoacoustician wrote
>
>"I had a look at "Harmonic Entropy" and was immediately put off by the
>idea that intervals are frequency ratios (which ratio? most intervals
>have two...) and Euler's idea of harmony, that in my view has no
>physiological basis"
>
>Most definitions of consonance do not require exact integer tunings,
>only approximations.
>
>-Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Who said this? It doesn't seem like they understand harmonic
entropy very well.

-Carl

At 12:56 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote:

>Believe me, a top source.  I belive it's based, partly, on the work of

Bloomslitter and Creel.



What is based on Boomlitter & Creel?



>All you have to do is look at the main papers in psychoacoustics to see that

the exact tuning of the interval doesn't matter for phenom. such as tonal

fusion.



I'm not familiar with such papers.  Can you cite some examples?



-Carl

hi Carl.  One reference to this issue occurs in Richard Parncutt's

important 1988 "Revision of Terhardt's Psychoacoustical Model of the

Root(s) of a musical chord."  On p. 70, he discusses Terhtards use of

subharmonics for a chord root model, and on the 'mistuning' of the

natural 7th harmonic, he writes that 'this does not effect the model,

as mistunings by up to half a semitone may still be perceived as

belonging to the tone [citations...]...and variations in tuning may

occur in performance of diatonic music [citations..]without effecting

the musics perceived tonal structure.  Such varaitions are esay to

eplain if musical intervals are regarded as no more that pitch

distances (as in Terhards model) rather than as frequency ratios (eg,

as in the  theory of Boomsliter and Creel, 1961.)"



I don't know the current status of this debate, but have often seen

it stated in the psychacoust lit. that tonal fusion in a complex tone

works within a range of 'mistuings'...



-Kelly



he writes "  --- In harmonic_entropy@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma

<carl@...> wrote:

>

> At 12:56 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote:

> >Believe me, a top source.  I belive it's based, partly, on the

work of Bloomslitter and Creel.

>

> What is based on Boomlitter & Creel?

>

> >All you have to do is look at the main papers in psychoacoustics

to see that the exact tuning of the interval doesn't matter for

phenom. such as tonal fusion.

>

> I'm not familiar with such papers.  Can you cite some examples?

>

> -Carl

>

Hi Kelly-



>hi Carl.  One reference to this issue occurs in Richard Parncutt's

>important 1988 "Revision of Terhardt's Psychoacoustical Model of the

>Root(s) of a musical chord."  On p. 70, he discusses Terhtards use of

>subharmonics for a chord root model, and on the 'mistuning' of the

>natural 7th harmonic, he writes that 'this does not effect the model,

>as mistunings by up to half a semitone may still be perceived as

>belonging to the tone [citations...]



There's nothing I can see here against harmonic entropy.



>...and variations in tuning may occur in performance of diatonic

>music [citations..] without effecting the musics perceived tonal

>structure.



"Tonal structure" sounds to me like it almost could be referring

to functional harmony, which is outside of the scope of harmonic

entropy or any model of psychoacoustic dissonance.



>I don't know the current status of this debate, but have often seen

>it stated in the psychacoust lit. that tonal fusion in a complex tone

>works within a range of 'mistuings'...



"Tonal fusion" is a loaded term, isn't it?  One would have to

know what it means to comment.



-Carl

traktus5 wrote:



> I don't know the current status of this debate, but have often seen

> it stated in the psychacoust lit. that tonal fusion in a complex tone

> works within a range of 'mistuings'...



We all know that certain properties hold for mistunings.

That's the whole point of temperament.  What you said is

that the precise tuning doesn't matter.  That's a very

different assertion and one you haven't backed up.





                          Graham