Ansel said:
> Perhaps I was trying to articulate (albeit poorly) the obvious--namely,
> that learning other positions is just plain hard for us mortals. What
> makes it especially tormenting is that each position uses the very same
> notes one may already be intimately familiar with from another position,
> but which are now suddenly foreign only because they are played in a
> different sequence. It doesn't matter if one knows second position inside
> and out. Learning fourth position is like learning second for the first
> time. That's what makes positions so elusive, and so maddening.

Thats probably because we don't really know what we are doing. Most of us
jumped right in and started to play by memorizing tunes and scales or riffs
and by playing by ear. This works great for guitar as one can transpose by
simply moving up or down the neck, but for diatonic harmonica its not
trivial at all because the three octaves are disposed differently.

The other thing that is bad, most of us (me first) have no idea what notes
we are "on" as we are playing by muscle memory even when improvising. In
fact, we don't even know (conciously) what hole we are on at any given time.
We are the "unconcious". How can we jump 2 semitones up if we don't know
where we are?

>It doesn't matter if one knows second position inside
> and out.

What do you mean by inside out?

>From the third note of a blues scale in G, name the note up 3 semitones from
that and where is it on the harp? and is it part of the blues scale? and is
it part of the G major scale?

If you learn where all the notes of the harp are and then learn several
scales in relative terms, you will eventually be able to learn new scales
and new positions quickly. Yes, the first few will be hard, but it should
get easier as you get better at doing the math and knowing the harp.
Learning to read music (sight play) might be a good way of learning the
notes of the harp.

The ultimate trick is to think of the next note you want to play and to be
able to play it in any key, to do that, we have to know where those sounds
are.

Pierre.





































----- Original Message -----
From: "Ansel Barnum" <barnum@...>
To: <winslowyerxa@...>
Cc: <harp-l@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 12:49 AM
Subject: [Harp-L] Re: Position Perception


> Perhaps I was trying to articulate (albeit poorly) the obvious--namely,
> that learning other positions is just plain hard for us mortals. What
> makes it especially tormenting is that each position uses the very same
> notes one may already be intimately familiar with from another position,
> but which are now suddenly foreign only because they are played in a
> different sequence. It doesn't matter if one knows second position inside
> and out. Learning fourth position is like learning second for the first
> time. That's what makes positions so elusive, and so maddening.
>
> Hence my question below which sought a holistic perception of the harp
> that transcends the boundaries of position playing/thinking. I don't know
> if what I'm talking about is the result of mastery or hallucinogens.
> Either way, your advice is unequivocal: Each position has new relations
> between notes, and each relation must be learned over and over and over
> again.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Ansel
>
>
> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 harp-l-request@... wrote:
>
>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:20:35 -0800 (PST)
>> From: Winslow Yerxa <winslowyerxa@...>
>> Subject: Re; [Harp-L] Position Perception
>> To: harp-l@...
>> Message-ID: <20050304012035.70135.qmail@...>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> Ansel Barnum writes:
>>
>> I was wondering how people think about the position they're playing in.
>> It seems like there are two possible approaches: 1) Consider each
>> position as an independent entity with its own sequence of notes or 2)
>> consider each position as a mode whose sequence of notes is that of
>> first position.
>>
>> ===================Winslow:
>>
>> I'm not sure what you mean here. I should point out that position and
>> scale are independent. Let's say you have a C harp and you play music
>> that has a tonal center of G. That makes it second position.
>>
>> It doesn't matter if it's G major, G minor, G dorian, mixolydian,
>> whatever. As long as the harp is in C and the tonal center is G, it's
>> second position.
>>
>> =============Ansel:
>>
>> On a piano, option 2) is the easy one: If you know the notes of a major
>> scale, then it's trivial to play the scale in any mode (just change the
>> starting note).
>>
>> ============Winslow:
>>
>> In so doing you also change the position. Let's say you choose the C
>> major scale on that C harp. PLay it as Ionian mode, the tonal center is
>> C, therefore first position. Let's say we choose the Mixolydian mode of
>> that same C major scale. The tonal center is now G so you're in second
>> position. and so on. I refer to the overall tonal center of a piece of
>> music, not of momentary shifts caused by chord progressions within a
>> key or the act of running up and down scale exercises using different
>> starting notes.
>>
>> ==========Ansel:
>>
>>
>> This is because playing the piano is a visual act, so you can see where
>> your fingers are relative to the keys on the keyboard. But you can't
>> see where your lips are on the harp, nor can you see the distance
>> between holes (half step, whole step, no step, etc.) or where a bend
>> needs to be inserted as called for by the Ionian scale. Consequently, I
>> find myself using approach 1), tackling each position as a new sequence
>> to learn on its own. But it seems like if someone could become so
>> intimate with the notes on the harp, then they could visualize them
>> like the keys on a piano and seamlessly transition from one position to
>> another with ease. Is this what happens when one reaches the mountain
>> top and achieves harp enlightenment?
>>
>> ===============Winslow:
>>
>> This flax weighs three pounds (never mind, a zen joke).
>>
>> The more familiar you get with your harmonica, the easier it gets to
>> play. Part of this is knowing where all the notes are and how to get to
>> them, and where all the other notes are in relation to any notes you
>> may have in mind, and how to get from one place to another.
>>
>> Personally, I have a quasi-visual map in my mind's eye. I know Howard
>> Levy sees a piano keyboard because he plays piano. Whether visual or
>> not, I think it helps to have some way to map the lay of the land.
>>
>> Of course the points on the map look different depending on the vantage
>> point created by the tonal center. In second position, 2 Draw and 6
>> Blow feel like the center of things, with everything else leading to
>> and from those points. In another position the focus and the vantage
>> point will be somewhere else so the same points on the map will have
>> different meanings.
>>
>> Winslow
>>
>
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