Hilsen Geir

--
Geir Solum
geirsolum@...  +47 73516604, 41302909




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Geir Solum wrote:

> Subject: [horn] Unsubscribe

You just sent an e-mail to 2,000+ people who cannot unsubscribe you. We're
just members, like you.

If you want to unsubscribe, try reading the notes at the bottom of every
e-mail you get from the list, especially this one:

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

>  Geir Solum wrote:

> Thank you for your reminder. I am sorry I did this wrong.

No worries. We all need reminders from time to time.

> By the way, your answer was also sent to 2000+ people

That was intentional. As I said, we all need reminders from time to time.
Not all horn players are as computer literate as you, and we get new people
all the time. It doesn't hurt to point out some basics to everybody. Those
who already know the ropes will glance at my response and delete it.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

For the horn enthusiasts in our four state area, I will be performing
Randall Faust's Concerto for Horn and Wind Ensemble with the
University of Arkansas Wind Ensemble next Wednesday, October 8 at the
Walton Arts Center in Fayetteville, AR. Tickets are $1.00 for students
and $10.00 for adults. Concert is at 7:30 pm. It's a great piece that
deserves a lot of attention, and I would love for anyone interested to
come check it out. I think you'll enjoy the rest of the wind
ensemble's program as well.

If interested, you can call the Walton Arts Center at 479-443-9216 or
e-mail me.

Hope to see some of you there.

Tim Thompson


Timothy F. Thompson, D.M.A.
Professor of Music
University of Arkansas

I am using a cheapo luggage cart to wheel my Holton cut bell horn case. The
cart tends to fall over.  Alright, so I am getting old. Apparently luggage
carts are also dated.  Even cheap luggage now has wheels. Target for
instance no longer sells carts. They did within the last year or so, but not
now.  If anyone uses one, I will appreciate a suggested source. If your age
embarrasses you, send your answer directly. It is probably a good idea to do
that anyway. This is probably not a high interest topic.



By the way, I will not go under the mattress to retrieve a large amount of
money for such a thing.  Lower end of the price range is best.





Bob Busch

Laurel MD













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I think they still sell them at airports.

Robert Busch wrote:
> I am using a cheapo luggage cart to wheel my Holton cut bell horn case. The
> cart tends to fall over.  Alright, so I am getting old. Apparently luggage
> carts are also dated.  Even cheap luggage now has wheels. Target for
> instance no longer sells carts. They did within the last year or so, but not
> now.  If anyone uses one, I will appreciate a suggested source. If your age
> embarrasses you, send your answer directly. It is probably a good idea to do
> that anyway. This is probably not a high interest topic.
>
>
>
> By the way, I will not go under the mattress to retrieve a large amount of
> money for such a thing.  Lower end of the price range is best.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob Busch
>
> Laurel MD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Hi everyone,

I am preparing an excerpt from the end of the first movement of mahler
3 and i was wondering if that passage marked "sehr drangend" is
supposed to be tongued or slurred. Most recordings I have heard sound
like it's been slurred but would just like to double check (also it is
incredibly difficult to double tongue that passage at speed)

Thanks!

Looking forward to some interesting conversations here...I also have a
facebook page.  Daniel Molendyke.

Playing a Conn 28 D that will be 37 years old this December.

Live and play in the Northern NJ / NYC area.  Anyone wanna get
together and blow through the fripperies?  Let me know!

> saw your post. At $400, though, I think I'd go to Ken for a new one.
He's
> selling the MB5, which sounds like yours, for just $40 more.
>
> Kerry Thompson
>

Regardless of the price, these cases are great for airline hand
luggage - I've done 2 x London/Toronto and 1 x London/Seattle with
mine so far this year.

Andy

> Regardless of the price, these cases are great for airline hand
> luggage - I've done 2 x London/Toronto and 1 x London/Seattle with
> mine so far this year.

No doubt about it. I just finished a trip to London and Berlin with my
Marcus Bonna flight case (the bowling ball case), which I got from Ken Pope.

I just wanted to give the seller a tip. If you're selling used equipment,
you can't expect to get close to retail for it. If s/he heeds my advice and
lowers the price, the case will sell. I picked up a used Pro-Tech a couple
years ago for $100, and still have it. That's the range I expect to see for
used cases.

Of course, s/he is perfectly free to ask whatever price. Just like we're
perfectly free to buy or not buy the case.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

I assume that you mean the "sehr drangend" between figures 75 & 76.


kenkoo1987 wrote:
> Most recordings I have heard sound like it's been slurred but would
just like to double check

This should definitely be toungued.  I don't which recorded
performances you've heard, but if could please let me know as I'd find
it quite interesting to hear that passage slurred!!!  It would
definitely sound different than I'm used to hearing it.


I have heard a few horn players get the toungues and fingers out of
sync here making the passage sound rather untidy.

If you find the correct fingerings, then you only have to worry about
the tonguing.

Assuming you have a double horn (or triple), the three bars at 75 can
all be played with 2-3 on the Bb side and fours bars from the fff
(where the semi-quavers in written C major start) can be played open on
the F side.

This generally, for me at least, makes it a lot easier to play.

Obviously, you'll need to be relatively proficient at double tonguing
if the conductor takes it very fast.

I have a question to post to you all.

Working to establish ourselves here in Texas, I've gotten "lucky,"
perhaps.  We're on the outskirts of Dallas, and I've started teaching at
two rural schools (3-As, for all you Texans/former Texans here!) and
have a total of about 26 students, ranging from absolute beginners (6th
grade) to high school seniors who are doing relatively well.  It's been
a treat as I've been working to best figure out the group approach for
these small-group sessions.  There are a couple who actually may take
privately.

One of my high school students is a Chinese exchange student.  When I
played in Germany, I thought it was a bit of a challenge then to get
down all the particulars of the musical vernacular.  This, alone is
being a challenge for this young man.  So I'm working with him on this
as best I can, knowing there are other students in the group too who
want to play.  But I was concerned about the thinness of his tone
quality and was thinking about how to work with him on this.  But then I
discovered that he was literally playing every note on the B-flat side
of his horn.  Now, thankfully just this week, I had the opportunity to
work with him privately just a bit.  I wrote out a chromatic scale for
F-side fingerings.  We played through a couple of things together, so
that he could hear the F-side sound-- not just from me, but also from
himself on his horn.

Then he told me that all of the kids in his school in China (a town
somewhere by Beijing-- sorry, I don't know China well at all!) are
taught to play everything on the B-flat side.

This astounds me.

And then I got thinking that maybe I shouldn't teach him to play on the
F-side.

But we all know the tone quality is much more rich and full on the
F-side from about the low G below low C to about an octave above middle
C.  This is the school I was taught in, anyway.

What are your thoughts/input on this?  He's a diligent student and I
have every confidence he'll be working on the F-side fingerings.  But is
this the best thing to be doing for someone apparently returning to
where all the other horn players around him are playing differently?  I
like to think that, perhaps this could be the start of a positive trend.
But then, perhaps it's only in his area of China where they're playing
this way.  (He told me that he's been taught by horn players over
there.)

Of course, this being the peak of marching season here, too, his needing
to play the "marching French horn" (aka mellophone) isn't helping the
fingering situation. . . . . . .

Looking forward to your input on this!!

- Cathy Lemmon
Texas trans-plant




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Cathy,
I don't have experience teaching exchange students, but since he is in
high school, he must be sophisticated enough to know that there are
different ways of doing things. That's one reason to be an exchange
student - to learn what goes on in another part of the world. He's
probably old enough so that he'll remember how to play his local style
too, so that if he has to change back, he'll adapt and he'll have
learned something new too. If you follow that approach, perhaps you
would even share with him this philosophy, so that he'll know you're
not trying to cancel out his locally learned playing, but introducing
him to the way you do things here.
	 Best wishes,
	   Pam

On Oct 2, 2008, at 9:24 AM, Cathy Lemmon wrote:

I have a question to post to you all.

Working to establish ourselves here in Texas, I've gotten "lucky,"
perhaps.  We're on the outskirts of Dallas, and I've started teaching at
two rural schools (3-As, for all you Texans/former Texans here!) and
have a total of about 26 students, ranging from absolute beginners (6th
grade) to high school seniors who are doing relatively well.  It's been
a treat as I've been working to best figure out the group approach for
these small-group sessions.  There are a couple who actually may take
privately.

One of my high school students is a Chinese exchange student.  When I
played in Germany, I thought it was a bit of a challenge then to get
down all the particulars of the musical vernacular.  This, alone is
being a challenge for this young man.  So I'm working with him on this
as best I can, knowing there are other students in the group too who
want to play.  But I was concerned about the thinness of his tone
quality and was thinking about how to work with him on this.  But then I
discovered that he was literally playing every note on the B-flat side
of his horn.  Now, thankfully just this week, I had the opportunity to
work with him privately just a bit.  I wrote out a chromatic scale for
F-side fingerings.  We played through a couple of things together, so
that he could hear the F-side sound-- not just from me, but also from
himself on his horn.

Then he told me that all of the kids in his school in China (a town
somewhere by Beijing-- sorry, I don't know China well at all!) are
taught to play everything on the B-flat side.

This astounds me.

And then I got thinking that maybe I shouldn't teach him to play on the
F-side.

But we all know the tone quality is much more rich and full on the
F-side from about the low G below low C to about an octave above middle
C.  This is the school I was taught in, anyway.

What are your thoughts/input on this?  He's a diligent student and I
have every confidence he'll be working on the F-side fingerings.  But is
this the best thing to be doing for someone apparently returning to
where all the other horn players around him are playing differently?  I
like to think that, perhaps this could be the start of a positive trend.
But then, perhaps it's only in his area of China where they're playing
this way.  (He told me that he's been taught by horn players over
there.)

Of course, this being the peak of marching season here, too, his needing
to play the "marching French horn" (aka mellophone) isn't helping the
fingering situation. . . . . . .

Looking forward to your input on this!!

- Cathy Lemmon
Texas trans-plant




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links





-------------------------------------------------------------
Pamela J. Marshall, composer -- -- pmarshall@...
Spindrift Music Company --  http://www.spindrift.com
Spindrift Recording Service — call 781-862-0884 to schedule
-------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Cathy,
I had another thought. The traditional Chinese singing style is very
bright and thin too. Perhaps his teachers admire this tone in the horn
as well. If you asked him what he thought of the difference in tone
quality, what would he say?
	 Best wishes,
		 Pam Marshall


On Oct 2, 2008, at 9:24 AM, Cathy Lemmon wrote:

I have a question to post to you all.

Working to establish ourselves here in Texas, I've gotten "lucky,"
perhaps.  We're on the outskirts of Dallas, and I've started teaching at
two rural schools (3-As, for all you Texans/former Texans here!) and
have a total of about 26 students, ranging from absolute beginners (6th
grade) to high school seniors who are doing relatively well.  It's been
a treat as I've been working to best figure out the group approach for
these small-group sessions.  There are a couple who actually may take
privately.

One of my high school students is a Chinese exchange student.  When I
played in Germany, I thought it was a bit of a challenge then to get
down all the particulars of the musical vernacular.  This, alone is
being a challenge for this young man.  So I'm working with him on this
as best I can, knowing there are other students in the group too who
want to play.  But I was concerned about the thinness of his tone
quality and was thinking about how to work with him on this.  But then I
discovered that he was literally playing every note on the B-flat side
of his horn.  Now, thankfully just this week, I had the opportunity to
work with him privately just a bit.  I wrote out a chromatic scale for
F-side fingerings.  We played through a couple of things together, so
that he could hear the F-side sound-- not just from me, but also from
himself on his horn.

Then he told me that all of the kids in his school in China (a town
somewhere by Beijing-- sorry, I don't know China well at all!) are
taught to play everything on the B-flat side.

This astounds me.

And then I got thinking that maybe I shouldn't teach him to play on the
F-side.

But we all know the tone quality is much more rich and full on the
F-side from about the low G below low C to about an octave above middle
C.  This is the school I was taught in, anyway.

What are your thoughts/input on this?  He's a diligent student and I
have every confidence he'll be working on the F-side fingerings.  But is
this the best thing to be doing for someone apparently returning to
where all the other horn players around him are playing differently?  I
like to think that, perhaps this could be the start of a positive trend.
But then, perhaps it's only in his area of China where they're playing
this way.  (He told me that he's been taught by horn players over
there.)

Of course, this being the peak of marching season here, too, his needing
to play the "marching French horn" (aka mellophone) isn't helping the
fingering situation. . . . . . .

Looking forward to your input on this!!

- Cathy Lemmon
Texas trans-plant




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links





-------------------------------------------------------------
Pamela J. Marshall, composer -- -- pmarshall@...
Spindrift Music Company --  http://www.spindrift.com
Spindrift Recording Service — call 781-862-0884 to schedule
-------------------------------------------------------------

Cathy Lemmon wrote:
> Then he told me that all of the kids in his school in China (a town
> somewhere by Beijing-- sorry, I don't know China well at all!) are
> taught to play everything on the B-flat side.
>
> This astounds me.
>

I have a student from Shanghai who plays an Alex 103 that sits in Bb. Her sound
is very nice. This is much more common than most of us in the US seem to think.
There's a reason that a lot of German instruments (as well as some others) give
one the option of setting the horn up this way ;-)

Dan

--
Dan Phillips
Associate Professor
Rudi E. Scheidt School of Music
The University of Memphis
901-678-3781

Cathy,

Introducing this student to the F side and its sound qualities is a
very good thing.  He will take that information back to China and
introduce it to his friends and they will decide if the sound is what
they want.

Sound has changed very much especially in Europe.  The vibrato is not
disappearing but certainly is being more controlled now.  Although
the European sound is very different from that of Chicago, LA, or New
York, it has certainly changed from 20 years ago.

Change and experimentation is a good thing!

Nancy

--- In horn@yahoogroups.com, Dan Phillips <dan@...> wrote:
>
> Cathy Lemmon wrote:
> > Then he told me that all of the kids in his school in China (a
town
> > somewhere by Beijing-- sorry, I don't know China well at all!) are
> > taught to play everything on the B-flat side.
> >
> > This astounds me.
> >
>
> I have a student from Shanghai who plays an Alex 103 that sits in
Bb. Her sound
> is very nice. This is much more common than most of us in the US
seem to think.
> There's a reason that a lot of German instruments (as well as some
others) give
> one the option of setting the horn up this way ;-)
>
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Phillips
> Associate Professor
> Rudi E. Scheidt School of Music
> The University of Memphis
> 901-678-3781
>

Cathy Lemmon wrote:

> One of my high school students is a Chinese exchange student.
> I was concerned about the thinness of his tone
> quality and was thinking about how to work with him on this.  But then I
> discovered that he was literally playing every note on the B-flat side
> of his horn.
>
> Then he told me that all of the kids in his school in China (a town
> somewhere by Beijing-- sorry, I don't know China well at all!) are
> taught to play everything on the B-flat side.
>
> This astounds me.
>
> And then I got thinking that maybe I shouldn't teach him to play on the
> F-side.
>
> But we all know the tone quality is much more rich and full on the
> F-side from about the low G below low C to about an octave above middle
> C.

Cathy, at the risk of boring those who already know, let me establish my
bona fides. I used to live in Beijing, where I was Horn Professor at the
Central Conservatory. I speak Chinese (Mandarin), though with a slight Texas
accent.

I wouldn't be surprised if all the students in his town played on the Bb
side. There aren't that many qualified Western music teachers in China, and
even fewer qualified to teach the Horn. There is also a shortage of teaching
materials (I got a copy of Farkas' book from the states for all my
students--it wasn't available in China). Bb is a short cut to accuracy and
facility for a young player, so they will often take the easy way.

However, straight Bb is far from the norm in China. My students all used
standard double horns, mostly Holtons, and they used the F side with ease.
You will be doing the student a favor by teaching him to play on the F side.
You can use a trick Louis Stout used on me to get me to use the Bb side
more--confiscate his Bb valve slides for a couple of weeks. (Actually, I've
heard that technique goes back to Chambers, perhaps farther).

As to his thin horn, check his equipment. If he's playing on a Chinese horn,
that could well be the cause. His mouthpiece may be an issue--check for the
typical dent-ridden stem. Or perhaps his early training was on a third-rate
Chinese horn, and he has that thin concept in his mind. Pam may have a
point--traditional Chinese opera does use a thin voice, as well as shrill
(to us) instruments.

On the other hand, youngsters in China don't typically listen to Chinese
opera--that's for grandma. They prefer hip-hop or rock. Western classical
training parallels our concepts pretty well--my students had beautiful
tones, and would have been near the top at any conservatory in the world.
Western-style singers also are similar in style to ours--I heard a very good
performance of "Tosca" in Beijing (sung in Chinese).

If it's not his equipment, I would focus on the tone concept. Expose him to
lots of recordings, and live performances if you can, of good Western horn
players. I think your concept of tone has a lot to do with how you play. I'm
a good example--I play on Geyer-wrap horns, mainly a Paxman 23E, but my tone
is more like an 8D, probably because I was raised on an 8D and taught by a
Chambers student. Also, being raised in the Texas Panhandle in the 60s, that
was the sound I heard the most.

True, the F horn is a bit richer in the middle and low register, but it can
also be a bit sludgy. A lot of European players use the Bb side a lot more
than we do in America. Heck, a lot of Americans are getting away from that
"switch at G" rule, and using whichever fingerings make sense. I don't hear
a lot of complaints about European or American horn sound. In fairness I
should say that I play a lot on the Bb side in the middle and low register
when fingerings or facility call for it, so I'm biased.

Chances are, it's a combination of the above. If you work with him, though,
and can send him back to China with a beautiful sound, you could have an
influence on many horn players you will never meet. They will assume that,
since he learned his style from a Western teacher, he has learned the
"right" way, and will try to emulate his sound.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

I'm so glad to be in the company of all of you!  So many great
insights and tips shared already.  Let me see what I can say/pursue
further in response.

Pam, he is definitely sophisticated enough to know the differences in
cultures-- I can sense that in him already.  I do remember the Chinese
exchange students I saw at the university I attended in Germany.  They
were friendly and hard-working, but hung around closely together,
which presented serious drawbacks.  I don't know where the nearest
person from his home country is for this young man to associate with.
  He's enough out in the country, he'll be absorbing things here be
sheer necessity.  So, he has the advantage of getting to know the
people and the culture here, along with the benefit of people here
being fascinated to learn things about his home country.  So, with all
that, I think he'll be able to switch back, as needed, to things he's
familiar with fairly easily when he gets home.

So, it's so interesting to caveat things here from what you shared,
Kerry.  Yes, I do seem to remember your saying you had associations
with China.  I wish you were here and could meet this young man!  Any
chance you could head to north Texas once more before you be-bop to
Berlin?

(When I lived there, by the way, I heard a recording of a German
trying to do country-western music-- singing auf Deutsch, of course,
with a constant, unchanging, and relentless "boom-chick" happening in
the background.  It was the scariest piece of whatever you might want
to call it I ever heard!  I'm certain your German won't have the twang
that that poor soul tried to have!) ;-)

I've actually considered getting a copy of Farkas' book for this
student too.  I suppose with what you've shared about the shortage of
horn teaching materials over there, this may actually be a great
idea-- along with Kopprasch and Kling, et al.

I laughed reading the idea you shared, too, about removing his B-flat
slides for a short time, to kind of "encourage" things.  We'll see how
he's progressed over this week.  Perhaps I'll encourage him to try
that at home.

And I think about what you shared, too, Pam, about the thin quality of
Chinese opera singers' voices and his tone.  With what you wrote,
Kerry, about there being more native Chinese horn teachers who haven't
been trained in the western style, with which we're all familiar with,
perhaps there is something to link things together here.

I'll make certain to bring in recordings of the "big horn" sound-- not
just for him, but for all my students.

Dan, I'm curious about the instrument your Chinese student plays-- the
Alex 103 sitting in B-flat.  What have you done with her to help her tone?

Nancy, What you said about him maybe taking what I'll teach him here
back to China, with the hopes that his friends there may be impressed
and they can decide what they like, is what I'm actually hoping for.

Kerry, that thought crossed my mind, too, about the B-flat side
providing a short-cut to accuracy and facility.  Typical for today's
mind-set, right?  The "easy" way.  I'm working him and all my students
  who are ready for them on Caesar's Daily Studies.  He'll have a full
copy of these when he returns, and these will accomplish much for him,
I'm certain.

As far as the instrument he's playing, it's actually an 8D-- school
horn.  All of my students are fortunate to have Conns.  Most of these
are 6Ds, though.  (Both of these schools need to get another
instrument repair place, though.  Both directors took all their
instruments in last spring to have them fixed up for the fall, and at
least three horns were in sorry shape still-- loose strings, tight,
unmoving valves.  I was able to get those ones going.  But one was
completely un-playable.)  So, his tone is something I'm working at
expanding.  The Daily Studies should help that a lot-- and listening
to the recordings and what I play for them.

But, all that being said, I wonder what instrument he does play on in
China.  I'll see if I can find that out.  What do you know, Kerry,
about horns that are actually made in China?

Of course, I will check his mouthpiece as well.

I'm just an old-schooler at heart, I guess.  I still don't like to
switch to the B-flat side until third-space C-sharp-- that's what I
still teach my students.  But I do play on the B-flat side at other
times as necessary.  Doing Carmen last year, there was a passage in
which I had to do the D above middle C (I'll get all those numbers for
the octaves down sometime. . . . . . .) on the B-flat side.  And I do
tell my students that this is going to happen as they pursue their
horn playing.

I attended a workshop by Randy Gardner, the low horn guru, who kind of
"got on my case" a bit-- in his kind way-- about the fact that I was
using B-flat fingerings for the E to D-flat below middle C.  So I
still go back and forth in that range.

I was glad to be able to have the brief private lesson with this
student.  He does have a strong desire to learn all that he can.  I do
hope what he learns from me will be a positive influence for his horn
playing-- and hopefully for others' too, back in China.

Thanks everyone, and I'll keep you posted as things progress!

- Cathy Lemmon
Montana transplant to Texas
(still trying to figure out how to sign this. . . . . .)

cg_lem wrote:
> Dan, I'm curious about the instrument your Chinese student plays-- the
> Alex 103 sitting in B-flat.  What have you done with her to help her tone?
>

Nothing :-) She has a very nice, characteristic German type sound, reflecting
the teaching that's happening in Shanghai. There are numerous connections
between Shanghai and German brass playing, most notably with Han Xiao-Ming and
his father, Han Sin-Kwong, professor at the Shanghai Conservatory.

She is flexible and sensitive, blends well with the other players and
instruments, and she plays in tune. I think it would be foolish to try to make
her sound like a traditional American horn player. Who was it that said "there
are two types of horn sounds- good and bad"? Hers is the good kind :-)


Dan

--
Dan Phillips
Associate Professor
Rudi E. Scheidt School of Music
The University of Memphis
901-678-3781

--- In horn@yahoogroups.com, Dan Phillips <dan@...> wrote:
>
> Nothing :-) She has a very nice, characteristic German type sound,
reflecting
> the teaching that's happening in Shanghai. There are numerous
connections
> between Shanghai and German brass playing, most notably with Han
Xiao-Ming and
> his father, Han Sin-Kwong, professor at the Shanghai Conservatory.
>
> She is flexible and sensitive, blends well with the other players and
> instruments, and she plays in tune. I think it would be foolish to
try to make
> her sound like a traditional American horn player. Who was it that
said "there
> are two types of horn sounds- good and bad"? Hers is the good kind :-)
>
>
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Phillips
> Associate Professor
> Rudi E. Scheidt School of Music
> The University of Memphis
> 901-678-3781
>

Great!  I guess I missed that the German-type horn sound is being
taught in Shanghai.

This makes me even more curious about horn instruction in China.
Where were the father-son team trained, then, do you know?

I've been wanting to listen more closely to Chinese orchestras--
particularly to their horns.  I'm curious of the contrast that can be
found.

Actually, maybe I'll sound ignorant here, but what good Chinese
orchestras make recordings widely available here?  Kerry, do you know?

- Cathy Lemmon
Montana Transplant to Texas

Cathy Lemmon wrote:

> I do remember the Chinese
> exchange students I saw at the university I attended in Germany.  They
> were friendly and hard-working, but hung around closely together,
> which presented serious drawbacks.

The West, with our strange customs, odd food, and difficult languages can be
a scary place for a Chinese student. I knew a group of 5 Chinese students
who had been living in San Francisco for 3 years, sharing a 2-br apartment,
who had never eaten American food except for peanut butter. True story.


> Any chance you could head to north Texas once more before you be-bop
> to Berlin?

Heh. I doubt it. You're not quite on the route from Boston to Berlin ;-)

> With what you wrote,
> Kerry, about there being more native Chinese horn teachers who haven't
> been trained in the western style, with which we're all familiar with,
> perhaps there is something to link things together here.

If he lives in a small town (anything under 500,000), it's likely his music
teacher is a pianist, or perhaps a violinist. It's highly unlikely there is
a western-trained brass player in town. It's like their English teachers,
who are mostly Chinese, and who have never been out of the country. They can
read and write passably, but they never learned conversational English. The
same [teaching English] is true of Japan as well, fwiw.

> Kerry, that thought crossed my mind, too, about the B-flat side
> providing a short-cut to accuracy and facility.  Typical for today's
> mind-set, right?

Well, some of the more spirited debates on the list have been whether to
start young students on Bb or F horn. I actually advocate starting on Bb,
but let's not sidetrack the thread.

> As far as the instrument he's playing, it's actually an 8D-- school
> horn
>
> But, all that being said, I wonder what instrument he does play on in
> China.  I'll see if I can find that out.  What do you know, Kerry,
> about horns that are actually made in China?

First, the 8D issue, then my China rant. Your student is probably used to
playing on inferior, smaller-bore horns. The 8D takes a lot of air to sound
good. You might get a copy of Wendell Rider's book, read what he says about
breathing, and teach your student how to put more air through the horn. That
alone might solve the tone problem.

Now, Chinese horns. Most of them aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
They tend to be made in "repurposed" factories--old airplane parts factories
and the like--with no skilled artisans on staff. It's just a way to make a
quick buck, and quality just isn't an issue.

China was, for a long time, a producer-controlled economy. That means you're
lucky we're willing to sell you a bicycle--it's up to you to make it work.
That has bred a typical socialist-worker's mindset of meeting minimum
standards, even if the standards are ridiculously low in our view. It's also
what has led to poisons in Chinese pet food and milk products, and lead
paint on children's toys.

When I was living in China, "made in China" (Ãæ¹ñŪ) connoted poor
quality.
Not just among the foreigners, either--the locals felt the same way, and
used the term with the same disdain.

The times, they are a-changing, though, and a new breed of Chinese
entrepreneur is emerging. There is at least one horn maker in China who is
genuinely trying to produce a quality instrument--I believe it's marketed
under the "Eastman" name. It's not up to Yamaha standards yet, but he's at
least making an effort.

It's more likely, though, that your student learned on an older,
poor-quality instrument like the Parrot brand. Gawd, are those awful. One of
my students played one, and his tone was thin, shrill, and out of tune. When
I tried out his horn, I sounded thin, shrill, and out of tune. I got him a
Holton, taught him how to use it, and he just blossomed.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

Cathy Lemmon wrote:

> Actually, maybe I'll sound ignorant here, but what good Chinese
> orchestras make recordings widely available here?  Kerry, do you know?

That doesn't sound ignorant at all. There aren't many recordings of Chinese
orchestras playing Western music. They tend to play arrangements of
traditional Chinese music, or music by contemporary Chinese composers. I
expect that to change, though, as Chinese orchestras get better. When I was
there, the Beijing Symphony had some extraordinary talent, but, as an
ensemble, they were on a par with, say, Indianapolis or Kansas City. That
is, very good, but not an elite orchestra good enough to get a recording
contract.

Search Amazon for "Shanghai Symphony" or "Beijing Symphony" and you'll get
an idea of what's available. Not much.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

If you are interested there is a Chinese art company--Divine Performing
Arts--their 2009 world tour starts in Dec 08, including many cities in North
America, Europe and Asia Pacific.  The dancers are accompanied by live Chinese
orchestras.  The horn players are from Taiwan and mainland China.

Here is the link to their shows:  http://www.divineshows.com/





----- Original Message ----
From: cg_lem <cathy@...>
To: horn@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 2, 2008 3:36:28 PM
Subject: [horn] Re: Chinese Horn Playing


I'm so glad to be in the company of all of you!  So many great
insights and tips shared already.  Let me see what I can say/pursue
further in response.

Pam, he is definitely sophisticated enough to know the differences in
cultures-- I can sense that in him already.  I do remember the Chinese
exchange students I saw at the university I attended in Germany.  They
were friendly and hard-working, but hung around closely together,
which presented serious drawbacks.  I don't know where the nearest
person from his home country is for this young man to associate with.
He's enough out in the country, he'll be absorbing things here be
sheer necessity.  So, he has the advantage of getting to know the
people and the culture here, along with the benefit of people here
being fascinated to learn things about his home country.  So, with all
that, I think he'll be able to switch back, as needed, to things he's
familiar with fairly easily when he gets home.

So, it's so interesting to caveat things here from what you shared,
Kerry.  Yes, I do seem to remember your saying you had associations
with China.  I wish you were here and could meet this young man!  Any
chance you could head to north Texas once more before you be-bop to
Berlin?

(When I lived there, by the way, I heard a recording of a German
trying to do country-western music-- singing auf Deutsch, of course,
with a constant, unchanging, and relentless "boom-chick" happening in
the background.  It was the scariest piece of whatever you might want
to call it I ever heard!  I'm certain your German won't have the twang
that that poor soul tried to have!) ;-)

I've actually considered getting a copy of Farkas' book for this
student too.  I suppose with what you've shared about the shortage of
horn teaching materials over there, this may actually be a great
idea-- along with Kopprasch and Kling, et al.

I laughed reading the idea you shared, too, about removing his B-flat
slides for a short time, to kind of "encourage" things.  We'll see how
he's progressed over this week.  Perhaps I'll encourage him to try
that at home.

And I think about what you shared, too, Pam, about the thin quality of
Chinese opera singers' voices and his tone.  With what you wrote,
Kerry, about there being more native Chinese horn teachers who haven't
been trained in the western style, with which we're all familiar with,
perhaps there is something to link things together here.

I'll make certain to bring in recordings of the "big horn" sound-- not
just for him, but for all my students.

Dan, I'm curious about the instrument your Chinese student plays-- the
Alex 103 sitting in B-flat.  What have you done with her to help her tone?

Nancy, What you said about him maybe taking what I'll teach him here
back to China, with the hopes that his friends there may be impressed
and they can decide what they like, is what I'm actually hoping for.

Kerry, that thought crossed my mind, too, about the B-flat side
providing a short-cut to accuracy and facility.  Typical for today's
mind-set, right?  The "easy" way.  I'm working him and all my students
who are ready for them on Caesar's Daily Studies.  He'll have a full
copy of these when he returns, and these will accomplish much for him,
I'm certain.

As far as the instrument he's playing, it's actually an 8D-- school
horn.  All of my students are fortunate to have Conns.  Most of these
are 6Ds, though.  (Both of these schools need to get another
instrument repair place, though.  Both directors took all their
instruments in last spring to have them fixed up for the fall, and at
least three horns were in sorry shape still-- loose strings, tight,
unmoving valves.  I was able to get those ones going.  But one was
completely un-playable. )  So, his tone is something I'm working at
expanding.  The Daily Studies should help that a lot-- and listening
to the recordings and what I play for them.

But, all that being said, I wonder what instrument he does play on in
China.  I'll see if I can find that out.  What do you know, Kerry,
about horns that are actually made in China?

Of course, I will check his mouthpiece as well.

I'm just an old-schooler at heart, I guess.  I still don't like to
switch to the B-flat side until third-space C-sharp-- that's what I
still teach my students.  But I do play on the B-flat side at other
times as necessary.  Doing Carmen last year, there was a passage in
which I had to do the D above middle C (I'll get all those numbers for
the octaves down sometime. . . . . . .) on the B-flat side.  And I do
tell my students that this is going to happen as they pursue their
horn playing.

I attended a workshop by Randy Gardner, the low horn guru, who kind of
"got on my case" a bit-- in his kind way-- about the fact that I was
using B-flat fingerings for the E to D-flat below middle C.  So I
still go back and forth in that range.

I was glad to be able to have the brief private lesson with this
student.  He does have a strong desire to learn all that he can.  I do
hope what he learns from me will be a positive influence for his horn
playing-- and hopefully for others' too, back in China.

Thanks everyone, and I'll keep you posted as things progress!

- Cathy Lemmon
Montana transplant to Texas
(still trying to figure out how to sign this. . . . . .)






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cathy,   Keep working with all your students in Dallas.  Just like in the
medical field the Chinese come here and learn and take back superior knowledge
to their communist country. It is so unfortunate that many of us in the United
States of America are taken advantage of. Yes  music is the universal language,
but as a horn player who has fought for the right of  freedom and democracy  
let us concentrate on are students art home here in the United States     
Respectfully,    Michael------------ Original message --------------
From: "Cathy Lemmon" <cathy@...>
I have a question to post to you all.

Working to establish ourselves here in Texas, I've gotten "lucky,"
perhaps. We're on the outskirts of Dallas, and I've started teaching at
two rural schools (3-As, for all you Texans/former Texans here!) and
have a total of about 26 students, ranging from absolute beginners (6th
grade) to high school seniors who are doing relatively well. It's been
a treat as I've been working to best figure out the group approach for
these small-group sessions. There are a couple who actually may take
privately.

One of my high school students is a Chinese exchange student. When I
played in Germany, I thought it was a bit of a challenge then to get
down all the particulars of the musical vernacular. This, alone is
being a challenge for this young man. So I'm working with him on this
as best I can, knowing there are other students in the group too who
want to play. But I was concerned about the thinness of his tone
quality and was thinking about how to work with him on this. But then I
discovered that he was literally playing every note on the B-flat side
of his horn. Now, thankfully just this week, I had the opportunity to
work with him privately just a bit. I wrote out a chromatic scale for
F-side fingerings. We played through a couple of things together, so
that he could hear the F-side sound-- not just from me, but also from
himself on his horn.

Then he told me that all of the kids in his school in China (a town
somewhere by Beijing-- sorry, I don't know China well at all!) are
taught to play everything on the B-flat side.

This astounds me.

And then I got thinking that maybe I shouldn't teach him to play on the
F-side.

But we all know the tone quality is much more rich and full on the
F-side from about the low G below low C to about an octave above middle
C. This is the school I was taught in, anyway.

What are your thoughts/input on this? He's a diligent student and I
have every confidence he'll be working on the F-side fingerings. But is
this the best thing to be doing for someone apparently returning to
where all the other horn players around him are playing differently? I
like to think that, perhaps this could be the start of a positive trend.
But then, perhaps it's only in his area of China where they're playing
this way. (He told me that he's been taught by horn players over
there.)

Of course, this being the peak of marching season here, too, his needing
to play the "marching French horn" (aka mellophone) isn't helping the
fingering situation. . . . . . .

Looking forward to your input on this!!

- Cathy Lemmon
Texas trans-plant



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh please. Let's not start this kind of discussion. The beauty of the
world of music is that it transcends so many superficial barriers and
allows us to be brothers and sisters in the world.

Ann Pearson
--- mli468@... wrote:

> Cathy,   Keep working with all your students in Dallas.  Just like in
> the medical field the Chinese come here and learn and take back superior
> knowledge to their communist country. It is so unfortunate that many of
> us in the United States of America are taken advantage of. Yes  music is
> the universal language, but as a horn player who has fought for the
> right of  freedom and democracy   let us concentrate on are students art
> home here in the United States      Respectfully,    Michael------------
> Original message --------------
> From: "Cathy Lemmon" <cathy@...>
> I have a question to post to you all.
>
> Working to establish ourselves here in Texas, I've gotten "lucky,"
> perhaps. We're on the outskirts of Dallas, and I've started teaching at
> two rural schools (3-As, for all you Texans/former Texans here!) and
> have a total of about 26 students, ranging from absolute beginners (6th
> grade) to high school seniors who are doing relatively well. It's been
> a treat as I've been working to best figure out the group approach for
> these small-group sessions. There are a couple who actually may take
> privately.
>
> One of my high school students is a Chinese exchange student. When I
> played in Germany, I thought it was a bit of a challenge then to get
> down all the particulars of the musical vernacular. This, alone is
> being a challenge for this young man. So I'm working with him on this
> as best I can, knowing there are other students in the group too who
> want to play. But I was concerned about the thinness of his tone
> quality and was thinking about how to work with him on this. But then I
> discovered that he was literally playing every note on the B-flat side
> of his horn. Now, thankfully just this week, I had the opportunity to
> work with him privately just a bit. I wrote out a chromatic scale for
> F-side fingerings. We played through a couple of things together, so
> that he could hear the F-side sound-- not just from me, but also from
> himself on his horn.
>
> Then he told me that all of the kids in his school in China (a town
> somewhere by Beijing-- sorry, I don't know China well at all!) are
> taught to play everything on the B-flat side.
>
> This astounds me.
>
> And then I got thinking that maybe I shouldn't teach him to play on the
> F-side.
>
> But we all know the tone quality is much more rich and full on the
> F-side from about the low G below low C to about an octave above middle
> C. This is the school I was taught in, anyway.
>
> What are your thoughts/input on this? He's a diligent student and I
> have every confidence he'll be working on the F-side fingerings. But is
> this the best thing to be doing for someone apparently returning to
> where all the other horn players around him are playing differently? I
> like to think that, perhaps this could be the start of a positive trend.
> But then, perhaps it's only in his area of China where they're playing
> this way. (He told me that he's been taught by horn players over
> there.)
>
> Of course, this being the peak of marching season here, too, his needing
> to play the "marching French horn" (aka mellophone) isn't helping the
> fingering situation. . . . . . .
>
> Looking forward to your input on this!!
>
> - Cathy Lemmon
> Texas trans-plant
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


Ann E.Pearson

Michael, one of the most beautiful things about music is that its magic
knows no political boundaries. Please, let's not inject jingoistic politics
into this discussion.

I've been there. I've lived in this "communist" country, know its people and
culture, speak their language, taught their students, even married a Chinese
woman (we're about to celebrate our 33rd anniversary). I have my political
opinions, of course, but I try to keep them out of discussions about music.
Please, out of respect to the other members of the list, do the same.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: horn@yahoogroups.com [mailto:horn@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> mli468@...
> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 12:34 AM
> To: horn@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [horn] Chinese Horn Playing
>
> Cathy,   Keep working with all your students in Dallas.  Just like in the
medical field
> the Chinese come here and learn and take back superior knowledge to their
> communist country. It is so unfortunate that many of us in the United
States of
> America are taken advantage of. Yes  music is the universal language, but
as a
> horn player who has fought for the right of  freedom and democracy   let
us
> concentrate on are students art home here in the United States
Respectfully,
> Michael------------ Original message --------------
> From: "Cathy Lemmon" <cathy@...>
> I have a question to post to you all.
>
> Working to establish ourselves here in Texas, I've gotten "lucky,"
> perhaps. We're on the outskirts of Dallas, and I've started teaching at
> two rural schools (3-As, for all you Texans/former Texans here!) and
> have a total of about 26 students, ranging from absolute beginners (6th
> grade) to high school seniors who are doing relatively well. It's been
> a treat as I've been working to best figure out the group approach for
> these small-group sessions. There are a couple who actually may take
> privately.
>
> One of my high school students is a Chinese exchange student. When I
> played in Germany, I thought it was a bit of a challenge then to get
> down all the particulars of the musical vernacular. This, alone is
> being a challenge for this young man. So I'm working with him on this
> as best I can, knowing there are other students in the group too who
> want to play. But I was concerned about the thinness of his tone
> quality and was thinking about how to work with him on this. But then I
> discovered that he was literally playing every note on the B-flat side
> of his horn. Now, thankfully just this week, I had the opportunity to
> work with him privately just a bit. I wrote out a chromatic scale for
> F-side fingerings. We played through a couple of things together, so
> that he could hear the F-side sound-- not just from me, but also from
> himself on his horn.
>
> Then he told me that all of the kids in his school in China (a town
> somewhere by Beijing-- sorry, I don't know China well at all!) are
> taught to play everything on the B-flat side.
>
> This astounds me.
>
> And then I got thinking that maybe I shouldn't teach him to play on the
> F-side.
>
> But we all know the tone quality is much more rich and full on the
> F-side from about the low G below low C to about an octave above middle
> C. This is the school I was taught in, anyway.
>
> What are your thoughts/input on this? He's a diligent student and I
> have every confidence he'll be working on the F-side fingerings. But is
> this the best thing to be doing for someone apparently returning to
> where all the other horn players around him are playing differently? I
> like to think that, perhaps this could be the start of a positive trend.
> But then, perhaps it's only in his area of China where they're playing
> this way. (He told me that he's been taught by horn players over
> there.)
>
> Of course, this being the peak of marching season here, too, his needing
> to play the "marching French horn" (aka mellophone) isn't helping the
> fingering situation. . . . . . .
>
> Looking forward to your input on this!!
>
> - Cathy Lemmon
> Texas trans-plant
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

To Yahoo horn group,  I want to sincerely apoligize for my statement.  I have
had a very frustrating several weeks.  I always appreciate all the valuable
information that is passed on this site.  Sincerely, Michael--------------
Original message --------------
From: mli468@...
Cathy, Keep working with all your students in Dallas. Just like in the medical
field the Chinese come here and learn and take back superior knowledge to their
communist country. It is so unfortunate that many of us in the United States of
America are taken advantage of. Yes music is the universal language, but as a
horn player who has fought for the right of freedom and democracy let us
concentrate on are students art home here in the United States Respectfully,
Michael------------ Original message --------------
From: "Cathy Lemmon" <cathy@...>
I have a question to post to you all.

Working to establish ourselves here in Texas, I've gotten "lucky,"
perhaps. We're on the outskirts of Dallas, and I've started teaching at
two rural schools (3-As, for all you Texans/former Texans here!) and
have a total of about 26 students, ranging from absolute beginners (6th
grade) to high school seniors who are doing relatively well. It's been
a treat as I've been working to best figure out the group approach for
these small-group sessions. There are a couple who actually may take
privately.

One of my high school students is a Chinese exchange student. When I
played in Germany, I thought it was a bit of a challenge then to get
down all the particulars of the musical vernacular. This, alone is
being a challenge for this young man. So I'm working with him on this
as best I can, knowing there are other students in the group too who
want to play. But I was concerned about the thinness of his tone
quality and was thinking about how to work with him on this. But then I
discovered that he was literally playing every note on the B-flat side
of his horn. Now, thankfully just this week, I had the opportunity to
work with him privately just a bit. I wrote out a chromatic scale for
F-side fingerings. We played through a couple of things together, so
that he could hear the F-side sound-- not just from me, but also from
himself on his horn.

Then he told me that all of the kids in his school in China (a town
somewhere by Beijing-- sorry, I don't know China well at all!) are
taught to play everything on the B-flat side.

This astounds me.

And then I got thinking that maybe I shouldn't teach him to play on the
F-side.

But we all know the tone quality is much more rich and full on the
F-side from about the low G below low C to about an octave above middle
C. This is the school I was taught in, anyway.

What are your thoughts/input on this? He's a diligent student and I
have every confidence he'll be working on the F-side fingerings. But is
this the best thing to be doing for someone apparently returning to
where all the other horn players around him are playing differently? I
like to think that, perhaps this could be the start of a positive trend.
But then, perhaps it's only in his area of China where they're playing
this way. (He told me that he's been taught by horn players over
there.)

Of course, this being the peak of marching season here, too, his needing
to play the "marching French horn" (aka mellophone) isn't helping the
fingering situation. . . . . . .

Looking forward to your input on this!!

- Cathy Lemmon
Texas trans-plant

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Again, I just want to thank all of you for what you've shared to help
as I work with this student from China.  World cultures have always
fascinated me, and I have never known much about the Orient.  This has
been enlightening in many ways.

I will keep you posted as things progress.

- Cathy Lemmon

I agree with Pam, that the approach might be "ok, you're taught in
China to play one way, and here's an alternative.  You can choose
which is more appropriate".

I've personally had a few experiences with Chinese made horns.
There's a horn student at a local NYC College playing a "Schill" horn.
  Full double, nickel-silver, Geyer wrap.  No matter what I do, it
sounds like a tuba...very flabby, unfocused sound.  The student sounds
that way too..

So...maybe your exchange student is used to a situation where the horn
in China darkens his sound for him.

Is he playin a local Texas school system horn or did he bring one from
home?

--- In horn@yahoogroups.com, Dan Phillips <dan@...> wrote:
>
> Cathy Lemmon wrote:
> > Then he told me that all of the kids in his school in China (a town
> > somewhere by Beijing-- sorry, I don't know China well at all!) are
> > taught to play everything on the B-flat side.
> >
> > This astounds me.
> >
>
> I have a student from Shanghai who plays an Alex 103 that sits in
Bb. Her sound
> is very nice. This is much more common than most of us in the US
seem to think.
> There's a reason that a lot of German instruments (as well as some
others) give
> one the option of setting the horn up this way ;-)
>
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Phillips
> Associate Professor
> Rudi E. Scheidt School of Music
> The University of Memphis
> 901-678-3781
>