Rick,
>
> But, another thing is that the guitar isn't usually taught with
> massive amounts of graded reading material.

This is absolutely true, and in too many cases. The problem comes from
the fact that way too many "teachers" are really not qualified. Many are
not good readers themselves, have no knowledge of repertoire or guitar
studies which are existent, do not really understand a whole lot of
theory and harmony, and were, for the most part, self- taught (usually
rock wannabes) themselves.

This makes it very hard for a student to find a good teacher in the
first place. When I get a student who's left one of these "teachers", I
have my work cut out for me - it's up to me to turn around a lot of
wrong-isms. Some of those students understand and throw themselves into
it, and some have layers of misconceptions to unravel before they get
it. All I can do is be sensitive to the issue at hand, and do my best to
turn the student around. Most of these students would have been better
off had they just tried to learn on their own first instead of trying to
study under one of these "teachers" - the negative effect of it having
been that strong.

This is something which will never change. It's the same lack of
integrity that finds its way into all businesses, human nature being
what it is. These "teachers" are determined to make that extra buck,
regardless of the consequences to their trusting and vulnerable students.

best,
Bobby

> If they must first learn to become proficient in standard notation,
> most do become discouraged because of the difficulty in becoming
> proficient enough....

> ...So who disagrees and why?

Rather than disagree, let me just add to what you've said.

When reading standard notation is used right away as part of the overall
guitar learning process, and not as an "add on" as it is by so many, it
rarely causes either confusion or frustration. As easy exercises, tunes,
melodies, &c are practiced, reading proficiency develops right along
with everything else.

Bobby

> As a result, guitar is much less intuitive due to the fact that the
> direction of the movement of the fret hand does not cause the pitch of
> the note changes to be consistant. ie. sometimes movement to the right
> lowers pitch and sometimes it raises pitch.

Yes, this, along with having the same note in more than one place,  is
what pianists find confusing,. But only in the beginning, when he begins
to leave the 1st position and make his trek up the neck.

Mick Goodrick's "Unitar" studies, along with regular old position
studies remedy this if the student has a little patience and persistence.
  It's not rocket science, after all.

best,
Bobby

Juan,

I don't read on any other instrument, but I wonder if it has to do with the
notion of passages "laying" well on an instrument. I get the feeling that
"laying well" isn't a big deal on flute. But, it makes a difference on guitar.
Some passages are much easier to play than others.

But, another thing is that the guitar isn't usually taught with massive amounts
of graded reading material.

--- In jazz_guitar@yahoogroups.com, JVegaTrio@... wrote:
>
> Rick,
>
> I think the answer (or AN answer) to your point below has more  to
> do with the guitar's musical "pedigree", more than anything else.
> The guitar was an instrument that was played by clowns, sailors,
> and women, no offense meant, and by virtue of that, it's assumed
> playing guitar is somehow "easier" than other instruments.   Since
> the guitar didn't make it into the concert hall until Segovia, for  the
> longest time, it's kind of a "second-class citizen", musically.   There
> is some truth to that, since playing guitar is "easier" than say,  oboe,
> or French Horn, etc.  (Also, you don't get chicks playing those,  lol...)
>
> Nobody in his right mind would go out and buy or rent a flute, oboe,
> violin, (heaven help us) trombone, or even a piano, take it home, and
> say to a child and/or loved one, "here, learn it".  On the other  hand,
> as a teacher, I often have students who came into their instrument
> from an uncle, parent, friend, garage sale, etc.
>
> I refer to the guitar as the "Rodney Dangerfield" of instruments,  because
> it doesn't get any respect, but those who take the time to learn  the
> instrument know really it's not that way at all, nor should it be, although
> I'm probably "pissing in the wind" as somebody else told me here.
>
> I'm not holding my breath for the video game "Bassoon Hero", but,
> ya never know...
>
> Cheers,
> JV
>
> Juan Vega
>
>
> In a message dated 11/12/2009 7:13:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> rpjazzguitar@... writes:
>
> So, it  puzzles me a bit why a great reading guitarist is usually a poor
> reader  compared to horn and piano  players.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In jazz_guitar@yahoogroups.com, Robert Cole <rmcgmn15@...> wrote:
>
> Piano notes are always linear meaning that notes to the right always go up in
pitch and notes to the left always go down in pitch. This is only true on guitar
if you use only one string. Playing notes and scales on guitar is mostly
non-linear because, of course, multiple strings are used. As a result, guitar is
much less intuitive due to the fact that the direction of the movement of the
fret hand does not cause the pitch of the note changes to be consistant. ie.
sometimes movement to the right lowers pitch and sometimes it raises pitch. This
causes confusion.
>  
> Right?  
>

Maybe early on. After you've been playing a while that part gets automatic, I
think. For the more advanced player the challenges are in, among many other
things, increasing fluidity, which requires knowing which notes you want to play
and figuring out how to pick them at higher speeds.



>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I'm a pretty good reader on guitar. I'm nowhere nearly as good as the average
pianist, but I can read pretty well for a guitarist.

That said, I find it very difficult to read chord melody. Maybe it's because the
print is too small. But maybe it's because when you read a couple of chord
symbols you have to figure out where you can play them, in sequence. That is,
just because you can figure out how to play the first one, doesn't mean you'll
be in position to play the second one. It may require being somewhere else on
the neck, or using a different fingering.

On piano, at least you don't have to figure out where to play each note.




--- In jazz_guitar@yahoogroups.com, Robert Cole <rmcgmn15@...> wrote:
>
> The key to enjoying the playing of music by sightreading standard notation is
to become proficient enough to play reasonably advanced arrangements without
being frustrated. Most people that want to learn to play guitar do not plan to
become professional musicians. But they would love to be able to learn to play
songs on guitar in solo chord melody style so that the melody and harmony can be
enjoyed at the same time and so listeners can recognize what they are playing
and are impressed. If they must first learn to become proficient in standard
notation, most do become discouraged because of the difficulty in becoming
proficient enough. And when they try to use tab they quickly realize that
decoding tab is just as difficult if not more difficult. So they resort to
learning a few songs by watching someone play and memorizing what they see
visually. But this learning method extremely limits their repertoire because if
they don't constantly practice
>  their songs they forget how to play them. And most people don't have the time
to constantly practice.
>  
> This is the main reason why most guitars end up not being played.
Discouragement!
>  
> So who disagrees and why?  
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Interesting list, but I agree with most of the comments below it... If he
needed Brits in the list he could have put in Marion MacPartland, George
Shearing, Johnny Dankworth a great soprano whose name escapes me.  (Ian
Parker?). I can't believe Wynton Kelly was left out. Oh, well, I guess one
has to stop somewhere...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The key to enjoying the playing of music by sightreading standard notation is to
become proficient enough to play reasonably advanced arrangements without being
frustrated. Most people that want to learn to play guitar do not plan to become
professional musicians. But they would love to be able to learn to play songs on
guitar in solo chord melody style so that the melody and harmony can be enjoyed
at the same time and so listeners can recognize what they are playing and are
impressed. If they must first learn to become proficient in standard notation,
most do become discouraged because of the difficulty in becoming proficient
enough. And when they try to use tab they quickly realize that decoding tab is
just as difficult if not more difficult. So they resort to learning a few songs
by watching someone play and memorizing what they see visually. But this
learning method extremely limits their repertoire because if they don't
constantly practice
  their songs they forget how to play them. And most people don't have the time
to constantly practice.
 
This is the main reason why most guitars end up not being played.
Discouragement!
 
So who disagrees and why?  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

oooops Where's Wes Montgomery?  not in the top 100?  wow...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Piano notes are always linear meaning that notes to the right always go up in
pitch and notes to the left always go down in pitch. This is only true on guitar
if you use only one string. Playing notes and scales on guitar is mostly
non-linear because, of course, multiple strings are used. As a result, guitar is
much less intuitive due to the fact that the direction of the movement of the
fret hand does not cause the pitch of the note changes to be consistant. ie.
sometimes movement to the right lowers pitch and sometimes it raises pitch. This
causes confusion.
 
Right?  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Juan,
> I'm not holding my breath for the video game "Bassoon Hero", but,
> ya never know...

Good one!

best,
Bobby

PS - When I said that trying to convince a TAB guy to read was "pissing
in the wind", it was not meant at all as an insult, either to you or to
the TAB guys. It was merely a metaphor.

Rick,

I think the answer (or AN answer) to your point below has more  to
do with the guitar's musical "pedigree", more than anything else.
The guitar was an instrument that was played by clowns, sailors,
and women, no offense meant, and by virtue of that, it's assumed
playing guitar is somehow "easier" than other instruments.   Since
the guitar didn't make it into the concert hall until Segovia, for  the
longest time, it's kind of a "second-class citizen", musically.   There
is some truth to that, since playing guitar is "easier" than say,  oboe,
or French Horn, etc.  (Also, you don't get chicks playing those,  lol...)

Nobody in his right mind would go out and buy or rent a flute, oboe,
violin, (heaven help us) trombone, or even a piano, take it home, and
say to a child and/or loved one, "here, learn it".  On the other  hand,
as a teacher, I often have students who came into their instrument
from an uncle, parent, friend, garage sale, etc.

I refer to the guitar as the "Rodney Dangerfield" of instruments,  because
it doesn't get any respect, but those who take the time to learn  the
instrument know really it's not that way at all, nor should it be, although
I'm probably "pissing in the wind" as somebody else told me here.

I'm not holding my breath for the video game "Bassoon Hero", but,
ya never know...

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega


In a message dated 11/12/2009 7:13:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
rpjazzguitar@... writes:

So, it  puzzles me a bit why a great reading guitarist is usually a poor
reader  compared to horn and piano  players.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't think that guitar is particularly difficult, as instruments go. Of
course, it is infinite, so there will be people who play it in ways that
astonish. That's true, I suppose, for every instrument.

But, it isn't particularly difficult to develop some chops on guitar. The number
of teenagers who can shred attests to that.

Learning music theory and training one's ear is the same on every pitched
instrument.

So, it puzzles me a bit why a great reading guitarist is usually a poor reader
compared to horn and piano players. I'd guess because it's easier to do other
things on guitar, so people don't spend much time reading. Also, there are some
things that are just doggone hard to play on guitar because of the need to
coordinate picking and fingering.

My idea of a hard instrument is chromatic harmonica. It sounds great, it's
cheap, easy to carry and almost nobody plays it. That's because it is amazingly
difficult. Nothing to see, nothing to feel and the geometry of the instrument is
jabberwocky.

I also think that great drummers are amazing. The coordination just seems so
difficult to develop.





--- In jazz_guitar@yahoogroups.com, JVegaTrio@... wrote:
>
> If by the comment below you mean that the same note is
> available on the guitar in multiple places (for quite a few of
> them), then I second that.  I've had university professors
> with doctorates tell me they'd tried to play guitar, and it
> was just "too difficult"...
>
> Cheers,
> JV
>
> Juan Vega
>
>
> In a message dated 11/12/2009 6:15:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> rmcgmn15@... writes:
>
> Learning to play standard notation on guitar is considerably more
> difficult than on piano due in part to the non- linear setup of the guitar
> fretboard.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

>  I've had university professors with doctorates tell me they'd tried
> to play guitar, and it
> was just "too difficult"..
>


I've taught several keyboardists. Some were great successes, and some
utter failures. Most were somewhere in the middle. Once they get past
the idea of having 6 keyboards, tuned a 4th apart (with one exception,
obviously), the rest depends upon how much they are willing to practice
(repetition again), and upon their talent, just as it does with anyone
else. Ultimately their musical background helps them in the end, just as
a guitarist's background would help him to learn the piano.

best,
Bobby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Learning to play standard notation on guitar is considerably more
> difficult than on piano due in part to the non- linear setup of the
> guitar fretboard. But even on piano, it takes years of lessons and
> practice to be able to play even moderatly advanced arrangements. So
> learning to play guitar by reading standard notation is definitly
> a more time consuming challange. And tablature is definitly NOT a good
> alternative for sight reading.

I disagree with this. Each instrument has it's own set of challenges.
For example, pianists have two clefs to deal with right out of the gates.

More so, learning to read is not that difficult. Becoming proficient
with it is another matter. But it doesn't involve "learning" per se so
much as it does repetition. One can learn to read vocabulary, but it
takes experience with many situations to become a fluent reader
(probably the reason why so many comic book enthusiasts became such good
readers, to the dismay of their elementary school teachers). So it is
with music. By avoiding that repetition every time the opportunity
arises, nothing is gained, at least in terms of reading skills.

The incorrect notion that reasonable reading skills can only be achieved
through many years of studies is probably what drives so many away from
trying. The fact is that when reading studies are a regular part of the
learning process, as well as a means to that learning process, progress
is achieved faster and more solid than by any other means.

And yes, TAB is most definitely NOT a good alternative for reading,
sight reading or otherwise. There is a lot more information about a
piece of music to be understood through standard notation than comes by
merely knowing where to place your fingers. Any standard notation reader
is aware of this. Most TAB readers would not understand this principle
if it were explained in absolute depth.

That's my experience, anyway.

best,
Bobby

If by the comment below you mean that the same note is
available on the guitar in multiple places (for quite a few of
them), then I second that.  I've had university professors
with doctorates tell me they'd tried to play guitar, and it
was just "too difficult"...

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega


In a message dated 11/12/2009 6:15:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
rmcgmn15@... writes:

Learning to play standard notation on guitar is considerably more
difficult than on piano due in part to the non- linear setup of the guitar
fretboard.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Learning to play standard notation on guitar is considerably more difficult than
on piano due in part to the non- linear setup of the guitar fretboard. But even
on piano, it takes years of lessons and practice to be able to play even
moderatly advanced arrangements. So learning to play guitar by reading standard
notation is definitly a more time consuming challange. And tablature is
definitly NOT a good alternative for sight reading. 



 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Juan,
> That said, I highly recommend the documentary "Crumb", which
> is about American cartoonist Robert "R." Crumb. He certainly comes
> from an "interesting" family, to say the least.

I've seen it. Trust me - when it comes to "interesting", he's an amateur...

>
> My Mom is in a jar.

You know, we tried that for a while, but it didn't work out. Don't make
the same mistake we did - open the top slowly, or the smell can be quite
overwhelming.

Bobby

It is only in the "electric" grades that the music
reading is weak. Similarly the "Rock school" grades.

The classical grades are quite different and each
classical grade includes a sight reading test as
part of the exam. A candidate is allowed one minute
only to view the sight test before a performance.
This is quite a high pressure music reading test.

The RGT classical grades are very similar to the
Associated board. The convenience of the RGT grades
is that the pieces are all contained in a single book for
each grade. With the Ass Board a student has to purchase
several books and select the pieces from them. Also
RGT requires knowledge of melodic minor scales from
G3 whilst As.B. does not until G5 and even then gives
people a choice of Melodic or Harmonic scales to perform.

Will

> Hey Will,
>
> "There is no requirement to read traditionally notated
> music as all music is written in easy-to-read TAB, as well  as
> traditional notation. CD examples are provided so you can 'listen
> and learn'."
>
> What's up with that????
>
> Cheers,
> JV
> ................
>
> Whoever wrote this -- is he serious?
> "...no requirement to read traditionally notated music as all music is written
in easy-to-read TAB..." gotta' be kidding me!
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

One person's take on the "best" 100 jazz recordings:

_http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/6515486/100-Best-Jazz-Recordings.h
tml_
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/6515486/100-Best-Jazz-Recordings.html)

I don't have any idea who Martin Gayford is, maybe one of our
members in the UK can shed some light?

Cheers,
JV




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No, I think the Registry of Guitar Tutors are a bit weak in their requirements
for reading skills (and repertoire) compared to the rival British exam boards in
the UK relevant to electric or "non-classical" guitar (which are the RGT,
Rockschool - requiring stronger reading skills but still from combined tab and
traditional notation I think - and Trinity Guildhall - with their plectrum
guitar exams - requiring reading skills from traditional notation).  In their
defence, I would say the RGT require more technical stuff like scales,
arpeggios, chords, etc than the other guys for similar grades (probably
including the various classical guitar grade exams).

By the way, the RGT electric guitar grades cover most of the arpeggios required
for the RGT bass guitar grades and may be of more interest to most guitar
players.  (I am currently trying for RGT electric guitar grades myself and may
try for the Trinity Guildhall grades in the future - with the latter providing a
target to improve my sight reading skills.  My reading skills are quite
poor...),

William

Very sad to hear. His recordings with Tony Scott were some of my
favorite things he did.
Another record he made "Piano and Pen" featured Jimmy Raney on one side
and Chuck Wayne on the other.
RIP Dick.

Those mushrooms from the 60s must be kicking in, you guys
are going real far afield here...

That said, I highly recommend the documentary "Crumb", which
is about American cartoonist Robert "R." Crumb.  He certainly comes
from an "interesting" family, to say the least.

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega


In a message dated 11/12/2009 12:02:33 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
ron45@... writes:

My Mom  is in a jar.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My Mom is in a jar.

Ron
Living and playing outside the box.

http://www.myspace.com/ron45becker

On Nov 11, 2009, at 3:59 PM, Bob Hansmann wrote:

> Hi ron,
> > Interesting family.
>
> Yes. They keep their mother on a cot underneath the floor boards. But,
> hey - doesn't everybody?
>
> best,
> Bobby
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm with you on that one. I won't even try to look at text presented
like that. Grey on black is another one used by a forum I
visited......once. White on black... terrible.

Ron
Living and playing outside the box.

http://www.myspace.com/ron45becker

On Nov 11, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Angelo wrote:

> Just a suggestion: The dark blue text on a black background doesn't
> really
> work for me... When I come across those types of color schemes, I
> don't even
> bother to try to read them... From the looks of the content, you
> will be
> having older folks who will have the same problem..
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I have a seven-year-old daughter and five year-old son, both of whom
> can read basic chords and melody on the grand staff without hesitation....

And there ya have it.  :-)

best,
Bobby

I have a seven-year-old daughter and five year-old son, both of whom can read
basic chords and melody on the grand staff without hesitation. What's more
neither of them remember a time when they could not read music, because I
started them learning when they were two and a half!  :-)

Ciao,

Dub

Thanks Jay,



I say if you want the girls in the audience to

"Kum-Bay-You"



Get in touch with your finger sensitivity



Dave Woods



   _____

From: jazz_guitar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_guitar@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Jay Mitchell
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:02 AM
To: jazz_guitar@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [jazz_guitar] Re: Playing Speed and relaxation





Dave Woods wrote:

> Such as it is, I have my take on this subject on my website.

Thanks for the link, Dave. I saved it this time for future reference. The
advice in this one piece of yours has been extremely helpful to me, and I've

been putting it to use ever since you first made reference to it some time
ago. If this is too touchy-feeIy for some folks, my response is
"Kum-bay-freaking-ya." ;)

Jay





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave Woods wrote:

> Such as it is, I have my take on this subject on my website.

Thanks for the link, Dave. I saved it this time for future reference. The
advice in this one piece of yours has been extremely helpful to me, and I've
been putting it to use ever since you first made reference to it some time
ago.  If this is too touchy-feeIy for some folks, my response is
"Kum-bay-freaking-ya." ;)

Jay