Ah Brian, sorry to have come across as argumentative. I think of the word
argument more in its academic sense: presenting positions and supporting
arguments, discussing, comparing ideas. And in rereading my post I see that I
was not as careful as I might have been in using the word argument.

I shy away from these sorts of discussions these days partly because I'm just
tired of them, partly because I have so much to say about them that it would
take pages and partly because they have often been (mis)used by the sean nos
police to beat people over the head, those who are not in compliance with
whoever has the stricter interpretation of the phrase.

Next time I see you I'd be glad to buy you a couple of beers and share ideas
about this slippery subject. I'd love to hear your ideas, too, coming from an
academic who is also obviously deeply involved in the cutlure. (Or am I wrong
about your being an academic?)
But writing about them just takes more energy and time than I'm willing to put
into it right now. I do have a long post on a Mudcat thread from several years
ago (here's a link to it:
http://www.mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=815366 which reveals
some of my thinking about a similar distinction, the difference between
traditional and folk songs.

Now that I think about it some more, my reaction to your question, Brian (I've
got to learn how to make a fada on a PC. On the Mac I'd have your name spelled
correctly.), probably comes from spending too much time on Mudcat, where such a
question inevitably draws lengthy opinionated rants and flames. It is a good
question and deserves discussion. Just not from me right now.

Cheers,

David


Brian Matthew Hart <ohairt@...> wrote:
This isn't an argument David but an open conversation
to exchange ideas. I'd like to hear other people's
ideas.

Brían
--- David Ingerson <davidingerson9@...> wrote:

> Oh my heavens! Brian. Not these sorts of arguments.
> I know you honor and participate in the tradition
> in a deep and lively way, but looking at it this way
> is like looking through a telescope
> backwards--looking through a confining, tight little
> academic lens. And I must admit to a bit of an
> intellectual thrill in disecting the tradition in
> this way--I was a philosophy major in another
> lifetime 40 years ago. However...the real thrill is
> in the singing. And in the singing with others.
>
> I will admit that thinking about these sorts of
> definitions and categories (all pretty much academic
> (in the broad sense) constructs) has its value,
> because, for people like us, revivalists all, if I'm
> not mistaken, a self-conscious approach is the only
> one we are capable of. And a thoughtful and
> reasoned self-consciousness is better than an
> arrogant or an ill-informed one, but too much
> self-consciousness is like too bright a sun and can
> lead to dessication and paralysis and perfectionism
> (a cancer of traditional arts, I think. Consider
> highland piping and its perfectly uniform, petrified
> performances.)
>
> Each singer will draw her own definitional lines
> at the end of the day, and these lines will be all
> over the continuum, from very conservative and
> restrictive definitions to more liberal ones to
> iconoclastic ones.
>
> I find myself on the more conservative side when
> singing and on the more liberal side when arguing.
> After all, if the tradition is going to live, it is
> going to change, and as much as we might not like
> it, things like technological innovations
> (recordings, TV) and global commnications ( which
> introduced the bouzuki, of all things, into the
> Irish tradition) are going to move those changes
> along. On the other hand, without recordings, none
> of us, I imagine, would even know what sean nos
> singing was let alone enjoy singing it (and enjoy
> arguing about it!).
>
> And now that I think about it, I am making this
> conversation even more abstract and more removed
> from singing. For I am offering meta-arguments:
> arguing about whether arguing about the subject is
> valueble or not. Yikes!
>
> I knew that once I started in on something like
> this, I couldn't stop, but it is past 2:00 AM and
> I'd better get this tired old body into bed or I'll
> get a sore throat and won't be able to sing!
>
> Cheers to all,
>
> David
>
> Brian Matthew Hart <ohairt@...> wrote:
> Thanks for that. I'm always interested
> with singers'
> first impressions of sean-nós. I'm not proposing
> that
> I know all of the answers so that's why I asked the
> question. I think you've a good understanding of it
> anyhow. So my next question, is it a song tradition
> or a singing tradition?
>
> Anybody else?
>
> Brían
> --- drew <muse_shop@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Sean-nos as opposed to trad style- hmmm. I could
> > tell you how much of an
> > expert I am on the subject, and wind up making a
> > fool of myself, but
> > instead I'll be honest. I didn't know there was a
> > difference before
> > yesterday! lol- Although what you refer to as
> > sean-nos are the songs
> > I've always said, "if only I could find a couple
> > people to play a
> > hurdy-gurdy, bodhran and bones while I sing that
> > one..." Keep in mind,
> > I'm 35 from North Carolina- since I play neither
> > mellow Jerry Garcia
> > leads nor blazing Eddie Van Halen solos, a lot of
> > people around here
> > don't think I 'really' play guitar, lol. So I'm
> > pretty much self taught,
> > and my own style of music often veers away from
> what
> > a ridgid
> > traditionalist would consider good form.
> >
> > Back to the question, sean-nos seems like a more
> > primitive, almost
> > tribal form of music. Performing alone gives a
> > musician a lot of freedom
> > with the ornamentation s/he can use, also with
> > rhythm, in the sense of
> > missing a beat to take a breath. Actually, some
> > sean-nos kind of reminds
> > me of some of the Krishna chants- not musically in
> > the sense of key and
> > rhythm, but just the general "feeling" of the
> music.
> >
> > That's my take on your question, really just a
> first
> > impression from a
> > beginner to this style of music. Hopefully I'll
> have
> > the chance to hear
> > from some people who know more than I about this
> > music, who have studied
> > it enough to word their answers more proficiently
> > than I can!
> >
> > Drew
> >
> >
> > --- In traditionalirishsinging@yahoogroups.com,
> > Brian Matthew Hart
> > <ohairt@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've only used an instrument to find a note if
> I'm
> > > a)singing accompanied or b)know my range is
> > limited
> > > and must sing in that key in order to hit my
> > notes.
> > >
> > > What's your take on what sean-nós singing is as
> > > opposed to irish traditional singing?
> > >
> > > B.
> > > --- drew muse_shop@... wrote:
> > > > And to start up a topic of conversation, let
> > > > me know what you think
> > > > of this: I'll admit I don't have the best ear
> > for
> > > > pitch, so I've found
> > > > that tapping out a melody on the xylophone is
> a
> > > > great tool, I can learn
> > > > to sing it properly by matching the notes,
> then
> > of
> > > > course drop the xy
> > > > when it's time to just sing! I'm pretty much a
> > loner
> > > > musician, that's
> > > > just something I came up with and find
> helpful-
> > I'm
> > > > curious as to
> > > > whether anyone else uses similar resources
> > during
> > > > practice?
> >
> > > > -Drew
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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