traditionalirishsinging : Message: Re: [Traditional Irish Singing] Re: Introduction

Hi there, Dave Ingerson, Irish singer! Sorry for how late I'm replying. Life
sure gets busy sometimes. And then I got a sore throat and pretty sick just for
St. Paddy's day, of all times. Oh well.

Someone had told me there was another David Ingerson who sang Irish songs, but
I never followed up on it. And now here you are! Pretty amazing! I'm not part
of a band and pretty much keep to the old style of Irish singing--solo and
unaccompanied. And, since there's not a lot of call for the old stuff, I
perform maybe once a year or so, although I'm very active in several folk song
circles here in Portland, Oregon, and I sing every day, (mostly to myself), and
enjoy it hugely.

If I remember correctly, you are in northeastern Pennsylvania. I am
tentatively planning a trip to the east this summer, partly to attend the Irish
Arts week in Durham, NY, so I might be able to drop in for a day and we could
hoist a few brews and sing a few songs!

Cheers,

David

Brian Matthew Hart <ohairt@...> wrote:
That's odd, two David Ingersons!

Perhaps I should have steered the conversation in the direction of Irish
language songs.

David from the West Coast, USA, yes, I am an academic of sorts as of late. I did
my MA thesis on Áine Meenaghan--the singer from Chicago who sang at the lunch
time concert. I came across some interesting ideas about sean-nós within my
studies as a style rather than a repertoire but with obvious dependant links to
the Irish language and songs within the Irish language repertoire. I suppose I'm
interested in seeing what singers from various parts of the Irish music world
consider sean-nós singing as opposed to traditional singing as opposed to Irish
singing, etc.

Are there really sean-nós police? If so, then why weren't they at SNM!

Brían

----- Original Message ----
From: dave ingerson <n3qck@...>
To: traditionalirishsinging@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 6:34:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Traditional Irish Singing] Re: Introduction

here is an idea loving folk songs and balleds tred celtic music has come a long
way from the emergration period to the present still ill sing the tred songs
that some from the roots of its birth songs from the heart and the soul it came
from CHEERS DAVE

dave ingerson <n3qck@yahoo. com> wrote: hey dave why do we have the same last
name? cheers

dave ingerson <n3qck@yahoo. com> wrote: i have been pondering this for some time
now. i have been with several bands over the past few years being a singer
songwriter i have found that the most beutyfull balleds came from slago and
being of scotish decent some of the song verces have the same rythum i have been
playing and preforming tred celtic music for over 27 yrs and still lerning the
tred irish songs.

David Ingerson <davidingerson9@ yahoo.com> wrote: Ah Brian, sorry to have come
across as argumentative. I think of the word argument more in its academic
sense: presenting positions and supporting arguments, discussing, comparing
ideas. And in rereading my post I see that I was not as careful as I might have
been in using the word argument.

I shy away from these sorts of discussions these days partly because I'm just
tired of them, partly because I have so much to say about them that it would
take pages and partly because they have often been (mis)used by the sean nos
police to beat people over the head, those who are not in compliance with
whoever has the stricter interpretation of the phrase.

Next time I see you I'd be glad to buy you a couple of beers and share ideas
about this slippery subject. I'd love to hear your ideas, too, coming from an
academic who is also obviously deeply involved in the cutlure. (Or am I wrong
about your being an academic?)

But writing about them just takes more energy and time than I'm willing to put
into it right now. I do have a long post on a Mudcat thread from several years
ago (here's a link to it:

http://www.mudcat. org/detail. cfm?messages_ _Message_ ID=815366 which reveals
some of my thinking about a similar distinction, the difference between
traditional and folk songs.

Now that I think about it some more, my reaction to your question, Brian (I've
got to learn how to make a fada on a PC. On the Mac I'd have your name spelled
correctly.), probably comes from spending too much time on Mudcat, where such a
question inevitably draws lengthy opinionated rants and flames. It is a good
question and deserves discussion. Just not from me right now.

Cheers,

David

Brian Matthew Hart <ohairt@yahoo. com> wrote:

This isn't an argument David but an open conversation

to exchange ideas. I'd like to hear other people's

ideas.

Brían

--- David Ingerson <davidingerson9@ yahoo.com> wrote:

> Oh my heavens! Brian. Not these sorts of arguments.

> I know you honor and participate in the tradition

> in a deep and lively way, but looking at it this way

> is like looking through a telescope

> backwards--looking through a confining, tight little

> academic lens. And I must admit to a bit of an

> intellectual thrill in disecting the tradition in

> this way--I was a philosophy major in another

> lifetime 40 years ago. However...the real thrill is

> in the singing. And in the singing with others.

>

> I will admit that thinking about these sorts of

> definitions and categories (all pretty much academic

> (in the broad sense) constructs) has its value,

> because, for people like us, revivalists all, if I'm

> not mistaken, a self-conscious approach is the only

> one we are capable of. And a thoughtful and

> reasoned self-consciousness is better than an

> arrogant or an ill-informed one, but too much

> self-consciousness is like too bright a sun and can

> lead to dessication and paralysis and perfectionism

> (a cancer of traditional arts, I think. Consider

> highland piping and its perfectly uniform, petrified

> performances. )

>

> Each singer will draw her own definitional lines

> at the end of the day, and these lines will be all

> over the continuum, from very conservative and

> restrictive definitions to more liberal ones to

> iconoclastic ones.

>

> I find myself on the more conservative side when

> singing and on the more liberal side when arguing.

> After all, if the tradition is going to live, it is

> going to change, and as much as we might not like

> it, things like technological innovations

> (recordings, TV) and global commnications ( which

> introduced the bouzuki, of all things, into the

> Irish tradition) are going to move those changes

> along. On the other hand, without recordings, none

> of us, I imagine, would even know what sean nos

> singing was let alone enjoy singing it (and enjoy

> arguing about it!).

>

> And now that I think about it, I am making this

> conversation even more abstract and more removed

> from singing. For I am offering meta-arguments:

> arguing about whether arguing about the subject is

> valueble or not. Yikes!

>

> I knew that once I started in on something like

> this, I couldn't stop, but it is past 2:00 AM and

> I'd better get this tired old body into bed or I'll

> get a sore throat and won't be able to sing!

>

> Cheers to all,

>

> David

>

> Brian Matthew Hart <ohairt@yahoo. com> wrote:

> Thanks for that. I'm always interested

> with singers'

> first impressions of sean-nós. I'm not proposing

> that

> I know all of the answers so that's why I asked the

> question. I think you've a good understanding of it

> anyhow. So my next question, is it a song tradition

> or a singing tradition?

>

> Anybody else?

>

> Brían

> --- drew <muse_shop@yahoo. com> wrote:

>

> >

> > Sean-nos as opposed to trad style- hmmm. I could

> > tell you how much of an

> > expert I am on the subject, and wind up making a

> > fool of myself, but

> > instead I'll be honest. I didn't know there was a

> > difference before

> > yesterday! lol- Although what you refer to as

> > sean-nos are the songs

> > I've always said, "if only I could find a couple

> > people to play a

> > hurdy-gurdy, bodhran and bones while I sing that

> > one..." Keep in mind,

> > I'm 35 from North Carolina- since I play neither

> > mellow Jerry Garcia

> > leads nor blazing Eddie Van Halen solos, a lot of

> > people around here

> > don't think I 'really' play guitar, lol. So I'm

> > pretty much self taught,

> > and my own style of music often veers away from

> what

> > a ridgid

> > traditionalist would consider good form.

> >

> > Back to the question, sean-nos seems like a more

> > primitive, almost

> > tribal form of music. Performing alone gives a

> > musician a lot of freedom

> > with the ornamentation s/he can use, also with

> > rhythm, in the sense of

> > missing a beat to take a breath. Actually, some

> > sean-nos kind of reminds

> > me of some of the Krishna chants- not musically in

> > the sense of key and

> > rhythm, but just the general "feeling" of the

> music.

> >

> > That's my take on your question, really just a

> first

> > impression from a

> > beginner to this style of music. Hopefully I'll

> have

> > the chance to hear

> > from some people who know more than I about this

> > music, who have studied

> > it enough to word their answers more proficiently

> > than I can!

> >

> > Drew

> >

> >

> > --- In traditionalirishsin ging@yahoogroups .com,

> > Brian Matthew Hart

> > <ohairt@...> wrote:

> > >

> > > I've only used an instrument to find a note if

> I'm

> > > a)singing accompanied or b)know my range is

> > limited

> > > and must sing in that key in order to hit my

> > notes.

> > >

> > > What's your take on what sean-nós singing is as

> > > opposed to irish traditional singing?

> > >

> > > B.

> > > --- drew muse_shop@.. . wrote:

> > > > And to start up a topic of conversation, let

> > > > me know what you think

> > > > of this: I'll admit I don't have the best ear

> > for

> > > > pitch, so I've found

> > > > that tapping out a melody on the xylophone is

> a

> > > > great tool, I can learn

> > > > to sing it properly by matching the notes,

> then

> > of

> > > > course drop the xy

> > > > when it's time to just sing! I'm pretty much a

> > loner

> > > > musician, that's

> > > > just something I came up with and find

> helpful-

> > I'm

> > > > curious as to

> > > > whether anyone else uses similar resources

> > during

> > > > practice?

> >

> > > > -Drew

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

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