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desire for meantone with an 11-limit interval on piano   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #66394 of 85346 |
Re: desire for meantone with an 11-limit interval on piano

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Krister Johnson" <aaron@...> wrote:
>
>
> Kurt,
>
> I usually think that with only 12 notes, one should either avoid the
> 11- (or even at times the 7-limit), *or*, go for something that you
> would tend to do more spacious, non-modulating JI with, and do
> something like a Ben Johnston harmonic tuning.

I think there are interesting 11-limit possibilities with just twelve
notes. Here is the bihexany, which I think is quite interesting:

! bihexany.scl
Hole around [0, 1/2, 1/2, 1/2]
12
!
35/33
7/6
5/4
14/11
15/11
3/2
35/22
5/3
7/4
20/11
21/11
2

Tempering out 441/440 and 540/539, for instance by 161-et, is a
retuning plan.

> If you plan to modulate, that F# will get pretty annoying (IMO).
>
> I think Kraig Grady's centaur is about as far as one can take the
> 7-limit while having meantone style limited-modulation, and that's
> probably because it avoids the 11-limit...in my experience with
> 12-note tunings, once you introduce the 11-limit, you are stuck with
> only a few usable roots (traditionally speaking)

The bihexany above has a considerable quantity of 11-limit chords.








Tue May 16, 2006 8:11 pm

genewardsmith
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... and the ... something ... You ... or 13 ... to ... few ... different ... of my ... Another way, depending on your piano, if you are handy you might be able...
threesixesinarow
threesixesin...
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May 17, 2006
1:17 pm

... I think there are interesting 11-limit possibilities with just twelve notes. Here is the bihexany, which I think is quite interesting: ! bihexany.scl Hole...
Gene Ward Smith
genewardsmith
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May 16, 2006
8:11 pm

... In my experience, these kinds of scales are cool harmonically/motivically, but very frustrating if one wants to think melodically (which of course is not...
Aaron Krister Johnson
akjmicro
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May 17, 2006
3:03 am

... I don't mind uneven steps, but it is nice if they stay within a half-semitone of ET. Also for retuning a piano it becomes a bit testy for old strings to be...
Kurt Bigler
voxdig
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May 17, 2006
7:56 am

... Yes, and without skipping the 7-limit either. Something to consider for another piano-year. This time I think I want only a dash of 11-limit, a bit of 7,...
Kurt Bigler
voxdig
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May 17, 2006
7:57 am

Gene and others, ... I seem to recall that Gene or someone had made some reasonable lattice representation of this (in 2-d projection), but I can't find it,...
Kurt Bigler
voxdig
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May 26, 2006
6:34 am

... multiply all ratios by factor 264=11*3*2*2 in order to obtain integral absolute pitch-frequencies ... C4 264 from 1/1 middle C=264Hz C# 280 > 35/33 (D4 297...
a_sparschuh
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May 26, 2006
8:54 am

... I'm not ... The first neat fact to bear in mind is that everything in the 7-limit can be expressed in terms of 2, 49/40, 10/7, and 2401/2400, and that last...
Gene Ward Smith
genewardsmith
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May 26, 2006
9:13 am

Gene, ... Thanks, I'll take a look at that. I've got a bit of reviewing to do to understand all this, but it is a good exercise. But maybe you can give me a...
Kurt Bigler
voxdig
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May 27, 2006
1:33 am

... Yeah, if somebody could plot that, I'd love to see it. ... Sorry to butt in, but I think the 2401/2400 thing was just an example -- a 7-limit one. The...
Carl Lumma
clumma
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May 27, 2006
2:01 am

... Since (441/440)^2/(243/242) = 2401/2400, it also tempers that out. Plus, (243/242)/(441/440) = 540/539....
Gene Ward Smith
genewardsmith
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May 27, 2006
3:09 am

... I'm working on getting Mathematica to do this. I can probably provide a png file when I have something that looks decent. ... Heck, no problem. Fancy...
Kurt Bigler
voxdig
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May 27, 2006
3:33 am

... Great! ... You can think in terms of 81/80 reducing the 5-limit to a linear thing -- and back it up with examples at your piano! ... I think this is...
Carl Lumma
clumma
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May 27, 2006
5:15 am

... Yes. But it doesn't give you a 5-limit structure. One consequence of tempering out 2401:2400 is that you have true neutral thirds: the perfect fifth can...
Graham Breed
x31eq
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May 27, 2006
6:45 am

... Well here's a first cut. It's not very "informational": http://breathsense.com/published/bihexany1.png I can add labelling etc. once i understand it...
Kurt Bigler
voxdig
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May 27, 2006
7:06 am

... It helps if you know that the stick figure with two legs is an ontonal tetrad, and standing on his head is a utonal tetrad. You can also see two hexagons...
Gene Ward Smith
genewardsmith
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May 27, 2006
8:40 am

... You have the origin labled, so that's 1/1. Then the stick figure off to the right, with 1/1 the left leg, is the 1-5/4-3/2-7/4 hexad. The 3/2 is the right...
Gene Ward Smith
genewardsmith
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May 27, 2006
9:02 am

... seems to me ... Not really. It isn't like 225/224, where you can look at it as a way of mashing the 7s down into the 5-limit lattice. Here the horizontal ...
Gene Ward Smith
genewardsmith
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May 27, 2006
9:21 am

... Even more, a 24-tone chain allows good combinations of both 7-limit and 11-limit, like "B-D#-F#-Gx-C#-Fb". And if you are willing to accept a 29-tone...
Petr ParĂ­zek
p.parizek@...
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May 16, 2006
8:59 pm

back in the mid 80's when i only had a 12 tone marimba to retune to go along with my set of dallesandro tubes with the full 1-3-5-7-9-11 CPS, i settled on...
Kraig Grady
banaphshu
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May 17, 2006
2:28 pm

... Hiya Kraig- did I get this right? ! Kraig Grady's dual [5 7 9 11] hexany scale. 12 ! 35/33 10/9 7/6 14/11 15/11 81/56 3/2 45/28 135/77 81/44 27/14 2 ! Gene...
Carl Lumma
clumma
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May 18, 2006
7:15 am

... No; mine is constructed in a way analogous to the construction of a hexany as a lattice hole. This is a lattice hole in an 11-limit lattice....
Gene Ward Smith
genewardsmith
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May 18, 2006
10:04 pm

... I'd love to hear more about the difference. -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma
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May 19, 2006
9:01 pm

... Here are some relevant articles: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tuning-math/message/11813 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tuning-math/message/11833 ...
Gene Ward Smith
genewardsmith
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May 20, 2006
1:10 am

... Yes, well I think I grok all that. The scale I gave was supposed to be two hexanies (as you point out, in the 11-limit, hexanies are consonant chords) a...
Carl Lumma
clumma
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May 20, 2006
2:59 am

Hi all, ... Carl, The ratios are clearly different; those you cite are more complex, but the step sizes are less extreme and overall, their average deviation ...
Yahya Abdal-Aziz
yahya_melb
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May 18, 2006
2:07 pm

... Great, Yahya! -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma
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May 19, 2006
9:03 pm

i am going to assume this is right as i don't have time to figure it out right now. Gene's looks like it has a similar construction cause it is outwardly...
Kraig Grady
banaphshu
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May 18, 2006
2:22 pm

... Try out the following circle of a dozen 5ths in absolute frequencies: C 33 cps or Hz, "the fundamental base of the chord G 99 :=33*3 "just pure 5th D...
a_sparschuh
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May 19, 2006
1:41 pm

... I really can't understand what this means. Why did you round everything to whole numbers of hertz? Are the octaves really supposed to be stretched by 10-20...
Keenan Pepper
keenan_pepper
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May 19, 2006
2:42 pm
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