Search the web
Sign In
New User? Sign Up
tuning · Welcome to the Alternate Tunings Mailing List.
? Already a member? Sign in to Yahoo!

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...
Message search is now enhanced, find messages faster. Take it for a spin.

Best of Y! Groups

   Check them out and nominate your group.
Having problems with message search? Fill out this form to ensure your group is one of the first to be migrated to the new message search system.

Messages

  Messages Help
Advanced
Beatings vs Intermodulation tones   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #79785 of 85469 |
Re: [tuning] Explaining major 4:5:6 and minor 10:12:15 triads,Re:Beatings vs Intermodulation

Ok, I put together a series that some of you may find interesting

http://soonlabel.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1231472075

http://tinyurl.com/9hzzlt

I did what Carl suggested and played around with pure sines, and also with pure triangles.
I only had time to do this in 12 TET.

By using an oscilloscope program I captured the FFT spectrum of C major C minor and C sus 4th.
There is a music example as well.

I also did the same with a triangle wave.

From a screen shot of cool edit you can see the beating or roughness of the chord. However, the lack of harmonics do not make a difference to me in the perceived consonance. In fact is you load the sine example in cool edit it looks pretty much the same as the triangle version.

This is all I had the time to do - any suggestions for exploration?

 


Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:51 am

vaisvil
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email

Forward
Message #79785 of 85469 |
Expand Messages Author Sort by Date

... To what mechanism do you attribute this "common fundamental"? ... Or is it 200 Hz? ... And what happens when you temper the chord? ... Not 500 Hz? -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
2:10 am

Ok, I put together a series that some of you may find interesting http://soonlabel.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1231472075 http://tinyurl.com/9hzzlt I did...
Chris Vaisvil
vaisvil
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
3:51 am

I'll be damned....     In fact, I will agree 4:5:6 sounds better even with pure sines...10:12:15 seems to sound more "off center" in mood, though the amount...
djtrancendance@...
djtrancendance
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
5:57 am

... The consonance isn't the same, especially for higher-limit otonal / utonal chords (hopefully Chris will oblige with that demo shortly). The difference is...
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
8:23 am

... Good work, Chris! ... From this we should be able to conclude that coincidences of partials and/or combination tones (if you listen to the sine example at...
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
8:07 am

Carl, can I trouble you to post the chords again? please note the korg only has 4 note polyphony ( a big flaw but the keyboard itself does more) so only 4...
Chris Vaisvil
vaisvil
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
2:02 pm

... Then use 1/1 5/4 3/2 7/4, and 1/1 7/6 7/5 7/4. I'll do an 11-limit comparison in cool edit, but it'll have to wait a couple weeks until I can get Vista...
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
8:32 pm

What trouble are you having with Vista? And if you are going to do that DL windows 7 from a torrent and try it before you install XP. The 7000 build beta is...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
8:47 pm

...    Actually, I would not fully agree IE I believe they are a part of what makes musical consonance/"concordance"...but having partials align does not...
Michael Sheiman
djtrancendance
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
4:18 pm

Hi Michael, ... No partials OR combination tones are audible with sine tones at normal listening levels. ... Just wait for the next demo. ... That makes...
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
8:36 pm

... --The consonance isn't the same, especially for higher-limit --otonal / utonal chords    I think here we are going back to our old consonance vs....
Michael Sheiman
djtrancendance
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
4:22 pm

Thanks to the whole alternate tuning list for the nice feedback. I found Chris' test very interesting, perhaps because as an experimental physicist I like...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
8:15 pm

Hi Max, ... How do you conclude this? The mean tone is heard because of the limited frequency resolution of the basilar membrane -- the two stimuli excite the...
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
9:49 pm

... Hi Carl, Ok I think I see your point. But: when you tune your guitar, you hear beating and use it to tune. When you start going out of tune, you hear fast...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
Offline Send Email
Jan 10, 2009
6:05 pm

... // ... Plomp & Levelt used continuously-tunable sine tone generators. As two sine tones diverge, we hear a gradually-increasing rate of beating in the mean...
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email
Jan 10, 2009
10:11 pm

Ok, Isn't ring modulation the multiplication of one input by the other? One can make a simple ring modulator out of 4 diodes and nothing more, no oscillators...
Chris Vaisvil
vaisvil
Offline Send Email
Jan 10, 2009
11:33 pm

... more, no ... frequency ... implement ... Hi Chris, yes, we are talking about different topics. By ringing I just meant the phenomenon by which energy goes...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
Offline Send Email
Jan 11, 2009
12:22 am

Max ps by any chance, would you find a moment to try fundamental tones combination 1 - 7/6 - 3/2 (or 6:7:9) the same way you did with 4:5:6 and...
Chris Vaisvil
vaisvil
Offline Send Email
Jan 11, 2009
1:07 am

And Max, I think the the diode ring modulator works is on the property of a diode to conduct current in only one direction. The result is multiplication of the...
Chris Vaisvil
vaisvil
Offline Send Email
Jan 11, 2009
1:10 am

Better ring modulators use additionally two small transformers 1:1. There are also ring modulators using IC's. It's one of the most interesting audio...
Daniel Forro
danforcz
Offline Send Email
Jan 11, 2009
12:33 am

... also with ... major C ... roughness of the ... me in the ... edit it ... Chris, this is great, as far as it goes, especially since there are triangle...
George D. Secor
gdsecor
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
8:45 pm

... Why? I still hear the phenomenon. Is this more evidence that coincident combination tones can't explain it? -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email
Jan 9, 2009
9:50 pm

... are ... (Carl, I apologize for the delay in answering. There have been too many messages to read in the limited amount of free time I've had lately, and I...
George D. Secor
gdsecor
Offline Send Email
Jan 13, 2009
8:14 pm

Hi George, ... The thread started by someone observing that major and minor triads are of a fundamentally different character. This difference gets more...
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email
Jan 13, 2009
8:40 pm

... Hi, I also hear, in the pure tone sample by Chris, the low-frequency beating (loudness variation) in the major triad, and not on the minor one, that...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
Offline Send Email
Jan 13, 2009
11:12 pm

... What was the final expression that you got when delta was thrown in? I'm interested to see this. Previously the existence of beating was written off as a...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
Offline Send Email
Jan 13, 2009
11:50 pm

... in? Hi Mike, I have reviewed my calculations about beating of triads, they now seem reliable. The basic idea works, but I had misinterpreted something in...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
Offline Send Email
Jan 15, 2009
8:52 am

... Hi Mike, I have realized that I could upload files within this list, therefore i have uploaded my Mathematica notebook file "beating_of_triads.nb" in the...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
Offline Send Email
Jan 15, 2009
5:08 pm

... Could you? I don't have Mathematica set up on my laptop. Thanks, Mike...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
Offline Send Email
Jan 15, 2009
8:45 pm

I have just posted a pdf file with Mathematica output about the beating of triads. Max...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
Offline Send Email
Jan 15, 2009
10:40 pm
 First  |  |  Next > Last 
Advanced

Copyright 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines - Help