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Beatings vs Intermodulation tones   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #79943 of 85234 |
Re: [tuning] Explaining major 4:5:6 and minor 10:12:15 triads,Re:Beatings vs Intermodulation

What makes a "beat" different from a "difference tone"? with respect the only
difference I see between the two is the frequency range in which they occur.
Thanks Chris
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Petr Parízek <p.parizek@...>

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:44:57
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [tuning] Explaining major 4:5:6 and minor 10:12:15
triads,Re:Beatings vs Intermodulation


Chris wrote:

> Petr, with all due respect, why would the sine in a harmonic act
> differently
> than the sine in the fundamental? It seems to me that the physics would
> be the same.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the sine in the fundamental". Of course, if
you mix sines of 600Hz and 601Hz, you CAN get some beats; but remember that
this is a rather small interval. Generally, I've always seen the term
"beats" used in situations where the intervals were smaller than about a
quarter-tone or whatever. A minor second can have perceivable difference
tones as well, but i wouldn't think of calling them "beats".

Petr



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Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:29 pm

vaisvil
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Message #79943 of 85234 |
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I think solution is more simple: - difference tones - there is clearly written "tone" here, and tone must be a periodic vibration we can hear (directly from...
Daniel Forró
danforcz
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Jan 14, 2009
1:10 pm

What makes a "beat" different from a "difference tone"? with respect the only difference I see between the two is the frequency range in which they occur....
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
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Jan 14, 2009
1:29 pm

... They're completely different phenomena. Beating is amplitude modulation caused by interference, and difference tones are nonlinear distortion products....
Carl Lumma
clumma
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Jan 14, 2009
4:35 pm

To play the devil's advocate - I thought what you are calling difference tones was the result of ring modulation. My point is pressure waves will or will not...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
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Jan 14, 2009
5:26 pm

... Other way around - beating is the ring modulation one. -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma
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Jan 14, 2009
6:14 pm

It doesn't seem to be what everyone is describing. On wikipedia ring modulation results in f1+f2 and f2-f1. These seem to be the difference tones as describe...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
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Jan 14, 2009
6:26 pm

If you take a 440 Hz sine wave, and you ring modulate it with a frequency of 1 Hz, you will hear 440 Hz with a 1 Hz "beating" over the whole thing. Fourier...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
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Jan 14, 2009
6:41 pm

Or would it be at 441 Hz and 439 Hz? The convolution theorem would seem to dictate that, but now I'm confused as to why the beating isn't 2 Hz then, but rather...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
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Jan 14, 2009
6:49 pm

OK, I see - it WOULD be 441 and 439 Hz. The "difference" of the two there is 2 Hz. If you treat 1 "beat" as an journey from soft to high volume and back to...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
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Jan 14, 2009
7:06 pm

I respectfully disagree. The formula says the result would be 441 hz and 439 hz sine waves. This would not be beating. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile ... ...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
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Jan 14, 2009
7:07 pm

Yeah, I screwed up on the math - see above. The point I was making is that this would, in fact, be beating. -Mike...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
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Jan 14, 2009
7:08 pm

It is not beating, it is ring modulation. The constructive destructive interference that occurs "in air" upon the resulting two sine waves is incidentail and...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
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Jan 14, 2009
7:13 pm

Let me ask you a question: ring modulating 440 Hz by 1 Hz gives you frequencies of 441 Hz and 439 Hz. As you might expect, the resultant sound sounds like a...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
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Jan 14, 2009
7:21 pm

... Sorry, forgot to quote - this last part was in response to your question about the RM between 100 and 200 Hz....
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
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Jan 14, 2009
7:22 pm

The difference is you are mixing two processes. One is electronic and the other is acoustic. And it won't sound like modulated 440. It will sound like two...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
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Jan 14, 2009
8:24 pm

Both resultant waveforms will be identical and have the same spectrum. How could they possibly sound different? The speaker putting the sounds into the air...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
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Jan 14, 2009
8:32 pm

... Sometimes even that is too much. Take the example of 8/5 and compare 13/8 to that. The distance between these two is 65/64 (which you can hear on your own...
Petr ParĂ­zek
p.parizek@...
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Jan 14, 2009
1:24 pm

... As Daniel has pointed out, sometimes it is the frequency of the difference tone itself, which we may perceive as beats if it lies outside our hearing ...
Petr ParĂ­zek
p.parizek@...
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Jan 14, 2009
1:43 pm

... respect the ... which they ... difference ... hearing ... of the ... as 27 cents ... To my understanding, difference tone is a tone, i.e. periodical ...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
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Jan 14, 2009
3:24 pm

... Incorrect! I'm not sure what else to say about this... -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma
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Jan 14, 2009
4:36 pm

... I guess the simplest demonstration is to play a pair of converging sine tones softly. There will be no difference tones, but roughness and then beating...
Carl Lumma
clumma
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Jan 14, 2009
4:48 pm

... Then you are not talking about combination tones. Combination tones do not appear themselves in the spectrum and you don't see them in FFT analysis. If...
Petr ParĂ­zek
p.parizek@...
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Jan 14, 2009
3:57 pm

... tones do not appear themselves in the spectrum and you don't see them in FFT analysis. If they, for any reason, eventually do appear in the spectrum, then...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
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Jan 14, 2009
4:09 pm

Sorry Petr, perhaps I misunderstood. I am talking about the FFT spectrum of the resulting signal, after nonlinear combination. In such a case combination tones...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
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Jan 14, 2009
4:15 pm

... You read my mind! -C....
Carl Lumma
clumma
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Jan 14, 2009
4:49 pm

... And from then on, they can no longer be called combination tones. Petr...
Petr ParĂ­zek
p.parizek@...
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Jan 14, 2009
4:27 pm

... Ok. So let's call them "tones that arise from a nonlinear combination of two pure tones", What is the correct terminology for those? Thanks Max...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
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Jan 14, 2009
4:35 pm

... First of all, I don’t know what you mean by „acoustic“ because here we were discussing pure sine waves which never occur in nature and can only be...
Petr Parízek
p.parizek@...
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Jan 15, 2009
7:37 am

You will not get interference when the sine waves are electrical. Ring modulation is a process that occurs with electrical signals. Beating as you describe...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
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Jan 15, 2009
1:47 pm

But oops. My experiment did show what is considered beating which is interference which is summation of the signal. However I still hold that one cannot ring...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
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Jan 15, 2009
1:53 pm
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