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Beatings vs Intermodulation tones   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #79954 of 85234 |
Explaining major 4:5:6 and minor 10:12:15 triads,Re:Beatings vs Intermodulation

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, chrisvaisvil@... wrote:
>
> What makes a "beat" different from a "difference tone"? with
> respect the only difference I see between the two is the frequency
> range in which they occur. Thanks Chris

They're completely different phenomena. Beating is amplitude
modulation caused by interference, and difference tones are
nonlinear distortion products. As I thought everyone agreed
by now, beating frequencies are not tones, but difference
tones are. -Carl
Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:35 pm

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clumma
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Forward 		Message #79954 of 85234 |
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What makes a "beat" different from a "difference tone"? with respect the only difference I see between the two is the frequency range in which they occur....
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
1:29 pm

... They're completely different phenomena. Beating is amplitude modulation caused by interference, and difference tones are nonlinear distortion products....
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
4:35 pm

To play the devil's advocate - I thought what you are calling difference tones was the result of ring modulation. My point is pressure waves will or will not...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
5:26 pm

... Other way around - beating is the ring modulation one. -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
6:14 pm

It doesn't seem to be what everyone is describing. On wikipedia ring modulation results in f1+f2 and f2-f1. These seem to be the difference tones as describe...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
6:26 pm

If you take a 440 Hz sine wave, and you ring modulate it with a frequency of 1 Hz, you will hear 440 Hz with a 1 Hz "beating" over the whole thing. Fourier...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
6:41 pm

Or would it be at 441 Hz and 439 Hz? The convolution theorem would seem to dictate that, but now I'm confused as to why the beating isn't 2 Hz then, but rather...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
6:49 pm

OK, I see - it WOULD be 441 and 439 Hz. The "difference" of the two there is 2 Hz. If you treat 1 "beat" as an journey from soft to high volume and back to...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
7:06 pm

I respectfully disagree. The formula says the result would be 441 hz and 439 hz sine waves. This would not be beating. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile ... ...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
7:07 pm

Yeah, I screwed up on the math - see above. The point I was making is that this would, in fact, be beating. -Mike...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
7:08 pm

It is not beating, it is ring modulation. The constructive destructive interference that occurs "in air" upon the resulting two sine waves is incidentail and...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
7:13 pm

Let me ask you a question: ring modulating 440 Hz by 1 Hz gives you frequencies of 441 Hz and 439 Hz. As you might expect, the resultant sound sounds like a...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
7:21 pm

... Sorry, forgot to quote - this last part was in response to your question about the RM between 100 and 200 Hz....
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
7:22 pm

The difference is you are mixing two processes. One is electronic and the other is acoustic. And it won't sound like modulated 440. It will sound like two...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
8:24 pm

Both resultant waveforms will be identical and have the same spectrum. How could they possibly sound different? The speaker putting the sounds into the air...
Mike Battaglia
battaglia01
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
8:32 pm

... Sometimes even that is too much. Take the example of 8/5 and compare 13/8 to that. The distance between these two is 65/64 (which you can hear on your own...
Petr Parízek
p.parizek@...
Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
1:24 pm

... As Daniel has pointed out, sometimes it is the frequency of the difference tone itself, which we may perceive as beats if it lies outside our hearing ...
Petr Parízek
p.parizek@...
Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
1:43 pm

... respect the ... which they ... difference ... hearing ... of the ... as 27 cents ... To my understanding, difference tone is a tone, i.e. periodical ...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
3:24 pm

... Incorrect! I'm not sure what else to say about this... -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
4:36 pm

... I guess the simplest demonstration is to play a pair of converging sine tones softly. There will be no difference tones, but roughness and then beating...
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
4:48 pm

... Then you are not talking about combination tones. Combination tones do not appear themselves in the spectrum and you don't see them in FFT analysis. If...
Petr Parízek
p.parizek@...
Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
3:57 pm

... tones do not appear themselves in the spectrum and you don't see them in FFT analysis. If they, for any reason, eventually do appear in the spectrum, then...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
4:09 pm

Sorry Petr, perhaps I misunderstood. I am talking about the FFT spectrum of the resulting signal, after nonlinear combination. In such a case combination tones...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
4:15 pm

... You read my mind! -C....
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
4:49 pm

... And from then on, they can no longer be called combination tones. Petr...
Petr Parízek
p.parizek@...
Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
4:27 pm

... Ok. So let's call them "tones that arise from a nonlinear combination of two pure tones", What is the correct terminology for those? Thanks Max...
massimilianolabardi
massimiliano...
Offline Send Email 		Jan 14, 2009
4:35 pm

... First of all, I don’t know what you mean by „acoustic“ because here we were discussing pure sine waves which never occur in nature and can only be...
Petr Parízek
p.parizek@...
Send Email 		Jan 15, 2009
7:37 am

You will not get interference when the sine waves are electrical. Ring modulation is a process that occurs with electrical signals. Beating as you describe...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
Offline Send Email 		Jan 15, 2009
1:47 pm

But oops. My experiment did show what is considered beating which is interference which is summation of the signal. However I still hold that one cannot ring...
chrisvaisvil@...
vaisvil
Offline Send Email 		Jan 15, 2009
1:53 pm

... I think your sine waves weren't pure. ... Petr and Mike just showed you how you can. -Carl...
Carl Lumma
clumma
Offline Send Email 		Jan 15, 2009
5:27 pm
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