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Need slavonic service material   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #23048 of 23584 |
Re: [ustav] Re: Modern orthography




--- On Sat, 7/11/09, Jopi Harri <jopi.harri@...> wrote:

> Dear Father,
>
> What I have seen is books that either omit the stresses or
> have
> them inconsistently, so that they are left out in every
> third
> word or so, or in more extended passages. For instance for
> one
> book that I have been using I have had to take the missing
> stresses from a classic orthography Sluzhebnik and other
> proper
> service books, or sometimes just to guess them.

Most prayer books I have seen only mark the stresses when the stress in Slavonic
differs from that in modern Russian.

> Very few. Many of my parishioners have a mental block
> about
> > Slavonic, and assume that *they* could never possibly
> read
> > *that*.
>
> Well, that being the case, why not use Russian?

Well, that's a different issue altogether! But with most of my parishioners the
issue is specifically with the Slavonic script -- not so much with the text.

> The actual case for Bulgarians and Serbs is that virtually
> whatever they sing, they sing it in Slavonic.

I am aware of that; I was talking primarily about prayer books and collections
of services for the use of the faithful, and perhaps as an introductory aid to
readers who are learning Church Slavonic.

My point was not to argue for the extensive use of civil script instead of
Slavonic script, but instead to point out that those who print prayer books in
civil script actually have valid pastoral reasons for doing so. To deride them
as lazy or slovenly is unfair and unChristian.

I serve almost entirely in Slavonic. I love Slavonic, and I personally find the
use of civil script to write it quite annoying (though less so than when I first
began). I even agree with Stephen about his preference for old orthography civil
script over new orthography - though I prefer Slavonic script to both. I
encourage my parishioners, especially those on the kliros, to learn to read
Slavonic script, since we only have most of the service books in that script -
including some pre-revolutionary books that are falling apart, new editions from
Russia, and a couple of post-war Serbian books (which are nice for beginners
because they spell out most of the abbreviations).

But I am also realistic. My parishioners are 90%+ 1st generation immigrants,
some from after WWII, but mostly from the new wave. I have prayer books
available in both Slavonic script and new orthography (you can get them in old
orthography, but Jordanville editions are at American prices, and are thus too
expensive to hand out.) I can't keep the new orthography books in stock. I still
have plenty of the Slavonic-script books.

As far as reaidng for services, I typically only use the new orthography
editions of the Hours, etc. when my readers are absent and I have to draft
someone unexperienced. I also have one man who used to read the Hours on Sunday
using such a book, but he has since progressed to a standard chasoslov. In his
case, the training wheels worked.

No, Slavonic script is not that hard. Any educated Russian could pick it up
easily with just a little effort. The sad truth, however, is that most of them
are not going to make the effort until they are more churched. And they are not
going to become more churched until they learn to pray. Slavonic script and, to
a lesser extent, old orthography civil script, are, in my humble opinion,
unnecessary obstacles on the way to that goal. Some might argue that Slavonic
itself is an obstacle, but I have found that a good civil script prayer book
with a glossary goes a long way towards making Slavonic accessible to an
average, marginally churched, Russian speaker.

In Christ,

Fr. Hermogen






Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:23 pm

wholste
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Message #23048 of 23584 |
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I am in need of the service for the Royal Martyrs in Slavonic. Although our weekend services are primarily in English, we have begun having weekday services...
Fr David Moser
priestdavid
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Jul 10, 2009
3:11 pm

Dear Fr David, If you type the words "служба новомучеников" into a Google search, you will come up with what you need. (In case Yahoo Groups...
Nikita Simmons
starina77
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Jul 10, 2009
4:40 pm

... Besides the obvious cosmetic presentation of the typeface, what is the difference between the old orthography and the modern? I read Serbian badly, Russian...
Philip Silouan Thompson
silouanthompson
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Jul 10, 2009
4:53 pm

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_Russian_orthography "The most recent large reform of the Russian spelling was prepared by Aleksey Shakhmatov and...
Nikita Simmons
starina77
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Jul 10, 2009
6:43 pm

I forgot to mention that the old orthography is not completely dead. Folks in the Russian diaspora (especially in ROCOR) have traditionally tried to maintain...
Nikita Simmons
starina77
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Jul 10, 2009
7:09 pm

In addition to the information Nikita supplies about old & new orthography in Russian, there are some further points pertaining to Slavonic. Slavonic became a...
stephen_r1937
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Jul 10, 2009
7:51 pm

Dear Stephen, I would advance one other reason for some use of new orthography in Slavonic texts, and that is to make them accessible to a great many people...
William Holste
wholste
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Jul 10, 2009
10:05 pm

... The new orthography is of little help unless the stresses are indicated. Books without stresses marked consistently are of no use for anyone, except...
Jopi Harri
jopiharri
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Jul 10, 2009
11:13 pm

Father Hermogen, are you not confusing two distinct things? Orthography and letter design are neither the same thing nor necessarily linked together. From the...
stephen_r1937
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Jul 11, 2009
2:23 pm

... And that is why all the new orthography Russian prayer books I've seen mark the stresses. ... Very few. Many of my parishioners have a mental block about...
William Holste
wholste
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Jul 11, 2009
12:52 am

... Dear Father, What I have seen is books that either omit the stresses or have them inconsistently, so that they are left out in every third word or so, or...
Jopi Harri
jopiharri
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Jul 11, 2009
12:06 pm

Ah, but there's the rub: currently new orthography is overwhelmingly the most common way of printing Slavonic in Russia, and, alas, in America. The...
stephen_r1937
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Jul 11, 2009
2:44 pm

... Sorry, that should be the Bulgarians and the Serbs. The Romanians, of course, serve in Romanian....
William Holste
wholste
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Jul 11, 2009
6:02 am

... Most prayer books I have seen only mark the stresses when the stress in Slavonic differs from that in modern Russian. ... Well, that's a different issue...
William Holste
wholste
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Jul 11, 2009
6:24 pm

... I happen to have books in which some of the stresses have been occasionally but not regularly omitted for the following types of words: 1) Words existing...
Jopi Harri
jopiharri
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Jul 11, 2009
7:13 pm

I see nothing here to disagree with. My preferences are really the same: polustav in traditional orthography is best, but civil script in old orthography is...
stephen_r1937
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Jul 11, 2009
9:55 pm

Dear Fr. Hermogen, Would it not be feasible to ask all the Slavonic readers to attend an evening workshop? You could explain the importance of being able to...
Nikita Simmons
starina77
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Jul 13, 2009
1:47 am
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